Building a $20M Agency Through SEO Specialization ft. Jason Hennessey
[00:00:00] Jason Hennessey: If you don't know where you're going, nobody else in the company knows where you're going. I didn't care like that. I was giving up 30, 000 per month in revenue. I wasn't going to let my staff take that abuse, you know? So that's me [00:00:10] doing what's right. Always. Most people say that I've got a good reputation because I've never really mismanaged expectations.
[00:00:17] Jason Hennessey: And, and if I ever did, I really try to course [00:00:20] correct very quickly. I deferred a lot of my profit into really capable people, but boy, was that one of the best investments that I ever made because that was the year that we went from like 4 million to [00:00:30] like 8 million in one year. Some people like to say it was a passion, but it was really an obsession.
[00:00:34] [00:00:40]
[00:00:47] Corey Quinn: Our guest today is an entrepreneur, [00:00:50] internationally recognized SEO expert and author who's been reverse engineering the Google algorithm since 2001. And he is absolutely [00:01:00] passionate about helping law firms succeed online.
[00:01:02] Corey Quinn: He's also the author of law firm SEO and honest SEO, and he has built his agency Hennessy digital [00:01:10] to 20 million from zero. So he has a wealth of knowledge to share with us. ~Welcome to the Joe. ~Welcome to the show. Jason Hennessy.
[00:01:17] Jason Hennessey: Awesome. Corey, thank you so much for having me, [00:01:20] man. I really appreciate it. It's an honor to be here.
[00:01:22] Corey Quinn: this is long overdue.
[00:01:23] Corey Quinn: I feel like, uh,
[00:01:24] Corey Quinn: you know, we've been working towards this. Um, I I've been, obviously spent my time at Scorpion. I was very [00:01:30] familiar with, Uh, your work at Hennessy
[00:01:32] Corey Quinn: Digital
[00:01:32] Corey Quinn: and, ~um, you know,~ people just,~ just, uh,~ speak so highly of you in
[00:01:35] Corey Quinn: the industry
[00:01:36] Corey Quinn: And so I was really excited to get you on,~ uh, the, ~the show and to get to [00:01:40] know you a little bit better and hear, hear more about your journey.
[00:01:42] Jason Hennessey: Awesome. Well, that means a lot.
[00:01:43] Jason Hennessey: Uh, like I said, you've
[00:01:44] Jason Hennessey: got a big name for yourself too. And, uh, and you know, it's an honor to be here with
[00:01:48] Jason Hennessey: your listeners
[00:01:49] Jason Hennessey: and hopefully [00:01:50] we can share some of my wisdom and, you know, people learn from my failures,
[00:01:53] Corey Quinn: Yeah, that's it.
[00:01:55] Jason Hennessey: Yeah.
[00:01:56] Corey Quinn: So just for context for folks may not be interested with the [00:02:00] agency
[00:02:00] Corey Quinn: Could you
[00:02:00] Corey Quinn: share a little bit about hennessey digital what you do the clients you serve and all that?
[00:02:04] Jason Hennessey: Yeah, uh, so, uh, agency is called Hennessy Digital, this agency started in two thousand and, [00:02:10] uh, fifteen, so we'll go on a ten year anniversary next year. you know, first couple years it was more of like a lifestyle business where I was kind of doing everything as [00:02:20] probably
[00:02:20] Jason Hennessey: most agencies kind of start.
[00:02:22] Jason Hennessey: And you like wake up one day and you're like, if I really want to build an asset, like I need to start delegating and, and, uh, and look at like hiring [00:02:30] people and, and so, uh, you know, the next couple of years, um, you know, we, we kind of staffed it up. And so here we are now, like
[00:02:37] Jason Hennessey: I said, about 10
[00:02:38] Jason Hennessey: years later, and you mentioned, we'll [00:02:40] do 20 million in top line revenue.
[00:02:42] Jason Hennessey: With,
[00:02:43] Jason Hennessey: uh, probably
[00:02:44] Jason Hennessey: our EBITDA will probably be about 4. 8
[00:02:48] Jason Hennessey: something around
[00:02:49] Jason Hennessey: there, I'd say. [00:02:50] Um, I'm an open book guy, um, you know what I mean? Like, there's not much that I don't really share. Um, and that's
[00:02:55] Jason Hennessey: just because,
[00:02:57] Jason Hennessey: you know, there's agency owners that I hope can aspire, you [00:03:00] know, I could inspire rather, um, you know, from listening to this.
[00:03:03] Jason Hennessey: So,
[00:03:03] Corey Quinn: Awesome Great. It's gonna be a great great conversation 4. 8 million in ebita on a 20 [00:03:10] million dollar top line. It's it's a healthy business So there's something you're doing some things well here.
[00:03:14] Jason Hennessey: Wasn't always that
[00:03:15] Jason Hennessey: way. You know what I mean? Like, just last year, you know what I mean? Like, you know, like, even like for like six years, [00:03:20] like our, our margin was only like seven, eight, 9%, right. But those are the years that you're really kind of stacking in, investing in leadership and stuff like that.
[00:03:28] Jason Hennessey: But you, you need to do that to kind of [00:03:30] get to that point that we are now. Yeah.
[00:03:32] Corey Quinn: , what were you up
[00:03:32] Corey Quinn: to prior to 2015 when you
[00:03:34] Corey Quinn: started this?
[00:03:35] Jason Hennessey: So
[00:03:36] Jason Hennessey: this agency, uh, like I said, was, um, uh, [00:03:40] started because I had sold a previous agency. Uh, my former agency, it's actually still around, it's called Everspark Interactive. Um, and so I built that up from [00:03:50] nothing, spent about
[00:03:50] Jason Hennessey: seven years
[00:03:51] Jason Hennessey: building that up. I was living in Georgia, um, and
[00:03:55] Jason Hennessey: I had a business partner,
[00:03:56] Jason Hennessey: And so the business partner bought me out. I then [00:04:00] moved to California, um,
[00:04:01] Jason Hennessey: and I took a
[00:04:03] Jason Hennessey: sabbatical leave for about a year, uh, and was playing tennis every day and, and then my wife was like, are you going to [00:04:10] get to work or what's going on here? You know? And so, uh, I'm like, okay. So I started another agency and so that was Hennessey, uh, digital, um, but that other agency did work with [00:04:20] law firms,~ uh,~ at the time,~ um, uh,~ much smaller law firms.
[00:04:22] Jason Hennessey: Uh, I think we only got to like maybe three and
[00:04:25] Jason Hennessey: a half million in top line revenue. Um, so it was a much smaller, uh, [00:04:30] agency. I was learning a lot, you know, building that agency and the new agency that I started, you know, um, I was able to kind of pick up with a lot of the, uh, [00:04:40] lessons that I learned building the first agency, right?
[00:04:42] Jason Hennessey: And, um, and so, and then even before that, like I've been doing SEO since 2001, right? So most of my adult life has kind of been [00:04:50] immersed in this subject, I guess,
[00:04:51] Corey Quinn: so was this previous agency exclusively serving law firms? Were they more of a generalist that they had some law firm clients? Like how did that work?
[00:04:59] Jason Hennessey: Yeah,
[00:04:59] Jason Hennessey: so [00:05:00] how the genesis of
[00:05:00] Jason Hennessey: Everspark Interactive started, uh, I
[00:05:03] Jason Hennessey: wasn't even, thinking about starting an agency to be candid. Uh, I, I had a, uh, a couple affiliate [00:05:10] marketing sites.
[00:05:10] Jason Hennessey: I was doing some consulting. I was working, uh,
[00:05:14] Jason Hennessey: for a couple of online poker websites, which is very competitive. And so, uh, a friend of [00:05:20] mine, a guy by the name of Brad Fallon, um, he had a company called StomperNet, ~um,~ and so he asked me to speak to a
[00:05:26] Jason Hennessey: group of lawyers.
[00:05:26] Jason Hennessey: He was asked to speak at
[00:05:28] Jason Hennessey: this conference, but he couldn't make it, and he said, hey [00:05:30] Jason, do you mind? Um, and so I said sure, and so I, I gave a presentation to about 50 DUI lawyers, and so, After about 45 minutes of me [00:05:40] disclosing, like, I don't know anything about legal marketing, but this is what I would do.
[00:05:43] Jason Hennessey: If I was a DUI lawyer, I would do this. I would do links. I'd write
[00:05:46] Jason Hennessey: content, right?
[00:05:47] Jason Hennessey: All of the same stuff that we're talking about
[00:05:48] Jason Hennessey: today, right? This is 2008.
[00:05:49] Jason Hennessey: [00:05:50] 2008. Um, and once I got off stage,
[00:05:52] Jason Hennessey: I had
[00:05:52] Jason Hennessey: about seven lawyers
[00:05:53] Jason Hennessey: that approached me, um, and said, Hey, that
[00:05:55] Jason Hennessey: was really
[00:05:55] Jason Hennessey: awesome. Do you do this like for consulting?
[00:05:58] Jason Hennessey: And I'm like, not really, [00:06:00] but give me your business card. And so I ended up leaving there with about seven business cards and probably five
[00:06:04] Jason Hennessey: clients.
[00:06:06] Jason Hennessey: And that was the genesis of the agency and that
[00:06:08] Jason Hennessey: was about thirty, [00:06:10] thirty five thousand per month in reoccurring revenue, right, just from one presentation, right?
[00:06:14] Jason Hennessey: And so I'm like, there's something on to this here, yeah,
[00:06:18] Corey Quinn: And so that
[00:06:19] Corey Quinn: was [00:06:20] Everspark
[00:06:20] Corey Quinn: and
[00:06:20] Corey Quinn: did you continue to only focus on attorneys or is there uh, sort of more of a broader mix?
[00:06:25] Jason Hennessey: we,
[00:06:25] Jason Hennessey: we market ourselves to
[00:06:27] Jason Hennessey: attorneys, right? So like, um,
[00:06:29] Jason Hennessey: there was [00:06:30] so much blue ocean there, right?
[00:06:31] Jason Hennessey: Because we're like, wow, like this is awesome, like we're
[00:06:33] Jason Hennessey: building a case
[00:06:34] Jason Hennessey: study, we're getting results. They're telling their friends about us, you know, then we're going
[00:06:39] Jason Hennessey: to the [00:06:40] conferences and now
[00:06:41] Jason Hennessey: we're, you know, having a booth at the conferences,
[00:06:44] Jason Hennessey: then I'm speaking at the conferences, right?
[00:06:46] Jason Hennessey: So like, we're just kind of
[00:06:46] Jason Hennessey: fully immersed in, in the legal [00:06:50] world, right? So
[00:06:50] Jason Hennessey: we really
[00:06:51] Jason Hennessey: didn't leave a lot of room or time to kind of focus on other
[00:06:54] Jason Hennessey: industries. There was a couple clients that might have came in that we work with. I think there was like
[00:06:58] Jason Hennessey: a data center that we were [00:07:00] working with. There's a couple of random things
[00:07:02] Jason Hennessey: that we did, but it was mostly legal
[00:07:04] Jason Hennessey: at the time.
[00:07:04] Jason Hennessey: Mm hmm.
[00:07:05] Corey Quinn: Great. So then you, you sold to your partner and about
[00:07:09] Corey Quinn: [00:07:10] 2014 about,
[00:07:10] Jason Hennessey: Yeah. 2014 2015.
[00:07:12] Jason Hennessey: That's
[00:07:12] Corey Quinn: yeah. And he took a year off, played a
[00:07:14] Corey Quinn: lot
[00:07:14] Corey Quinn: of tennis. And then what, what got you back in the, in the digital marketing agency space? Like, what about it [00:07:20] threw you back in?
[00:07:21] Jason Hennessey: It's all
[00:07:22] Jason Hennessey: I knew. I mean, really, I mean, that's the stuff, like, even though that I took a year off, it did not stop me from watching YouTube videos and reading books [00:07:30] and keeping up with journals and blogs. Right. You know what I mean? So, like, It was still my obsession, Some people like to say it was a passion, but it was really an obsession.
[00:07:38] Jason Hennessey: And so, when I sold [00:07:40] my agency, the exhibit that we both signed was that, Hey, listen, I agree that I'm not going
[00:07:45] Jason Hennessey: to take the clients
[00:07:46] Jason Hennessey: of ever spark interactive, and I agree that I'm not going to take
[00:07:49] Jason Hennessey: the [00:07:50] staff
[00:07:50] Jason Hennessey: of ever spark interactive, and we listed that out on an exhibit, right.
[00:07:54] Jason Hennessey: But it didn't prevent me from creating another agency in the
[00:07:57] Jason Hennessey: legal space,
[00:07:58] Jason Hennessey: right? And so that was like the terms of [00:08:00] the agreement. So,
[00:08:01] Jason Hennessey: you
[00:08:01] Jason Hennessey: know, I, I ended up getting one client, um, and that client is still a client
[00:08:05] Jason Hennessey: with me
[00:08:06] Jason Hennessey: today, right? So like 10 years later, and then you, [00:08:10] you really focused on building like one great case study with that
[00:08:13] Jason Hennessey: one client.
[00:08:14] Jason Hennessey: And then you leverage
[00:08:14] Jason Hennessey: that case study. To get client number two and client number three. Right. And then you build [00:08:20] those three case studies and then you get
[00:08:21] Jason Hennessey: client six, seven,
[00:08:22] Jason Hennessey: eight, nine, 10. Right. And then the hard part begins of like building systems and processes and hiring people and training people.
[00:08:28] Jason Hennessey: And right. That's when it all [00:08:30] kind of falls apart. Right. You know, but building the first case study
[00:08:33] Jason Hennessey: is the
[00:08:33] Jason Hennessey: easy, is the easy part,
[00:08:35] Corey Quinn: after a couple of years of running this as a, um, sort of a solopreneur,
[00:08:39] Corey Quinn: it's
[00:08:39] Corey Quinn: probably more of a [00:08:40] modern term, but you're running, you're running the show, probably doing the work, closing the deals, bring on one or two clients as, you know, as you went along, at what point did you decide or realize that you [00:08:50] wanted to build an asset?
[00:08:51] Corey Quinn: And what, what, what were the conditions that caused you to realize that?
[00:08:54] Jason Hennessey: I remember it like
[00:08:55] Jason Hennessey: these first
[00:08:55] Jason Hennessey: couple years, right? I think the first year was like the half a year we did like 185, [00:09:00] 000 and the next year I did like 800, 000 and third year, I think it was by like
[00:09:03] Jason Hennessey: year
[00:09:04] Jason Hennessey: three, I think
[00:09:06] Jason Hennessey: maybe, I was making a lot of money, right? Um, like I was [00:09:10] working my butt off, right?
[00:09:11] Jason Hennessey: Um, and I had no life. Um, I would go on vacations and I would You know, be at the pool with [00:09:20] my wife and, you know, my kids. Right. And I
[00:09:23] Jason Hennessey: would have to
[00:09:23] Jason Hennessey: go upstairs at two o'clock because I got to take this call. Right. You
[00:09:27] Corey Quinn: of an entrepreneur.
[00:09:28] Jason Hennessey: yeah,
[00:09:29] Jason Hennessey: you know, and I'd [00:09:30] come back down and so I had no life. Right. And so, but at the end of the year, I made a lot of money.
[00:09:33] Jason Hennessey: I think I made like over a million dollars. Right.
[00:09:36] Jason Hennessey: And just
[00:09:36] Jason Hennessey: like take home. I remember I was in Hawaii with my [00:09:40] wife and, um, I get a
[00:09:41] Jason Hennessey: text message
[00:09:42] Jason Hennessey: from my, my CPA and he's like, I got some bad news. I'm like, what? He goes, you did really good this year, but you're going to have to write a
[00:09:49] Jason Hennessey: big [00:09:50] check to
[00:09:50] Jason Hennessey: the IRS.
[00:09:51] Jason Hennessey: And I'm like, what
[00:09:52] Jason Hennessey: the heck?
[00:09:53] Jason Hennessey: I'm like, and here
[00:09:54] Jason Hennessey: I am like sitting
[00:09:54] Jason Hennessey: there like, why? Like why? Like I literally have to go up and take another like sales call. Like, I'm [00:10:00] like, why am I working so hard? Right.
[00:10:01] Jason Hennessey: And I'm like,
[00:10:02] Jason Hennessey: I would have much rather to defer that profit into buying back
[00:10:05] Jason Hennessey: some more of my
[00:10:06] Jason Hennessey: time. And then hiring people that are more capable at [00:10:10] specific roles.
[00:10:10] Jason Hennessey: And so that was kind of like the light bulb moment. And so I went and found a good
[00:10:17] Jason Hennessey: COO, um,
[00:10:18] Jason Hennessey: that was going to be like my [00:10:20] second in command. Um, and then he helped to recruit his former CFO and so we then recruited their CTO.
[00:10:27] Jason Hennessey: And so
[00:10:28] Jason Hennessey: I basically got an
[00:10:28] Jason Hennessey: executive leadership [00:10:30] team
[00:10:30] Jason Hennessey: in a box that all had worked together for about 10, 12 years
[00:10:33] Jason Hennessey: at a different
[00:10:34] Jason Hennessey: company that already went to an
[00:10:35] Jason Hennessey: exit.
[00:10:36] Jason Hennessey: And so that was it. It was a big investment that I had to make. I deferred a lot of [00:10:40] my profit into really capable people. Um, but boy, was that one of the best investments that I ever made because that was the year that we went from like. I want to say we did like 4 [00:10:50] million to like 8 million in one year in top line, like just by putting the
[00:10:53] Jason Hennessey: infrastructure in
[00:10:54] Jason Hennessey: and freeing up more of my
[00:10:55] Jason Hennessey: time.
[00:10:55] Corey Quinn: it's interesting to me that you, you focused on hiring more [00:11:00] sort of senior executive folks who are more strategy versus maybe
[00:11:03] Corey Quinn: a tactical,
[00:11:03] Corey Quinn: maybe replacing some of the more tactical day to day stuff that you were working on. Did you do that as well? Or why, why focus on [00:11:10] senior leadership, as an initial sort of infrastructure for the business?
[00:11:13] Jason Hennessey: You know
[00:11:14] Jason Hennessey: what? It wasn't that I went out and, uh, and
[00:11:16] Jason Hennessey: I put an ad to
[00:11:17] Jason Hennessey: find like a COO. It just like naturally
[00:11:19] Jason Hennessey: [00:11:20] happened. I had a
[00:11:20] Jason Hennessey: friend in, um, New Jersey. That said, you need to connect with my buddy Scott. Um, he's on the market right now. He's
[00:11:29] Jason Hennessey: one of the
[00:11:29] Jason Hennessey: [00:11:30] smartest people I know. And you're also one of the smartest people that I know.
[00:11:33] Jason Hennessey: And it'd be a dangerous combination if you two were to work together. Um, he went to MIT, he's got an MBA [00:11:40] from Kellogg. I'm like, if you can score Scott, that's a huge win, at least meet with him. Right.
[00:11:45] Jason Hennessey: And so
[00:11:46] Jason Hennessey: that's really what happened. So it really, it wasn't like by [00:11:50] design. It just kind of happened naturally, to be honest with you.
[00:11:53] Jason Hennessey: And then Scott and I met and we hit it off and we put, you know, terms in place. Um, and, and that was [00:12:00] it. And then from there, the moment that he came
[00:12:01] Jason Hennessey: in,
[00:12:02] Jason Hennessey: He's like, Whoa, like, wait a second. You've got all these contractors. Like we were in California, like this is a [00:12:10] liability.
[00:12:10] Jason Hennessey: The,
[00:12:11] Jason Hennessey: the books are a mess. Um, we need a Michelle Patrick.
[00:12:15] Jason Hennessey: And I'm like, well, who's the Michelle Patrick? He goes, that's my former C C CFO. And he's [00:12:20] like, anyway, he's like, I could reach out to her. I'm not sure what she's up to these days, but let me reach out to her. And then sure enough, like we were able to kind of recruit her. And then she came in and cleaned up
[00:12:28] Jason Hennessey: the books and
[00:12:29] Jason Hennessey: got all the [00:12:30] infrastructure and made me.
[00:12:31] Jason Hennessey: Uh, more compliant, I guess, right? And so, anyway, and then,
[00:12:35] Jason Hennessey: and then the
[00:12:36] Jason Hennessey: journey continues. Don't get me wrong, we did hire people, support system along the [00:12:40] way, um, you know, but, uh, but those were the two big hires that really were two adults in the room that really kind of turned it into a lifestyle business, into
[00:12:49] Jason Hennessey: more of
[00:12:49] Jason Hennessey: a, [00:12:50] an asset, I
[00:12:50] Jason Hennessey: guess.
[00:12:51] Corey Quinn: CTO as well. Um, the reason why that kind of perked my ears up a little bit was, You know, my time at Scorpion, I [00:13:00] came at a time when the business was already doing, you know, uh, was already up and running and fairly successful. But something that we did really well, which I found [00:13:10] interesting, is we built our own internal software that was sort of internally facing.
[00:13:14] Corey Quinn: It wasn't intended for our Scorpion clients, but it was for our internal teams to be able to execute
[00:13:19] Corey Quinn: [00:13:20] build
[00:13:20] Corey Quinn: websites and campaigns and so on and so forth. So I'm curious, what kind of technology Was, was the focus for the CTO.
[00:13:26] Jason Hennessey: And he wasn't the, like, I think the title wasn't a [00:13:30] CTO right off the bat. I think he was like the director of engineering and then
[00:13:33] Corey Quinn: Uh huh.
[00:13:34] Jason Hennessey: senior director and over time he kind of grew into like the CTO he's been with us for probably five years now. [00:13:40] but initially it was
[00:13:41] Jason Hennessey: just, um, building better systems and processes.
[00:13:44] Jason Hennessey: Like, you know, we had many people touching different websites. We didn't have [00:13:50] like one central login. And so. You know, like little things like that. So like, if somebody got fired, you have to change
[00:13:56] Jason Hennessey: the passwords for
[00:13:56] Jason Hennessey: everything. You know, so we figured out like just little [00:14:00] things like that. You're just like, Whoa, you know, and then it morphed into what you're talking about.
[00:14:05] Jason Hennessey: Right.
[00:14:05] Jason Hennessey: You know,
[00:14:06] Jason Hennessey: building, um, our own internal, uh, [00:14:10] platform or internal tools. Right.
[00:14:12] Jason Hennessey: Um,
[00:14:12] Jason Hennessey: and then just continuing
[00:14:13] Jason Hennessey: to refine
[00:14:13] Jason Hennessey: things
[00:14:14] Jason Hennessey: based on
[00:14:14] Jason Hennessey: how we do things so that like we have more transparency into what we're doing, [00:14:20] um, If somebody makes a mistake with a website,
[00:14:22] Jason Hennessey: we can actually
[00:14:22] Jason Hennessey: track that and we'll teach lessons.
[00:14:24] Jason Hennessey: And, um, and
[00:14:26] Jason Hennessey: nowadays
[00:14:27] Jason Hennessey: we have like, I want to say we've got like 25 people [00:14:30] like
[00:14:30] Jason Hennessey: just in
[00:14:30] Jason Hennessey: our own, um, like, uh, internal systems team. Right. And that's their whole job is building like software that we use internally. Right. So yeah.
[00:14:39] Corey Quinn: do you own [00:14:40] sales today or do you close deals today?
[00:14:41] Jason Hennessey: Occasionally, um, I, I will
[00:14:45] Jason Hennessey: occasionally,
[00:14:46] Jason Hennessey: um, but in most cases, no, usually like a lead will come into [00:14:50] me like, Hey Jason, you know,
[00:14:51] Jason Hennessey: meet so and so, you know, from this firm. And
[00:14:54] Jason Hennessey: then I will, uh, say
[00:14:55] Jason Hennessey: very nice to meet you. And
[00:14:56] Jason Hennessey: I'll loop in one of my salespeople and I'll say, let's set up a [00:15:00] call. And then usually they take it over.
[00:15:02] Jason Hennessey: Um, only if it's like a personal relationship or something, I'll jump on the sales call. But for the most part, I've got two salespeople. [00:15:10] one is director of sales. The other one's director of business development. they have a, a monthly KPI, uh, of
[00:15:16] Jason Hennessey: bringing in 60, 000
[00:15:18] Jason Hennessey: per month in reoccurring [00:15:20] revenue, right?
[00:15:20] Jason Hennessey: So that's their goal. That's their target. Some months they exceed that, um, we'll do like 110, 000 in reoccurring revenue, and then some months
[00:15:29] Jason Hennessey: they might fall [00:15:30] short, you know,
[00:15:30] Jason Hennessey: between the both of them and bring in like 32, 000. Right. You know, but that's kind of like what the benchmark is.
[00:15:36] Corey Quinn: what would, what's an average client value from an MRR perspective?
[00:15:39] Jason Hennessey: [00:15:40] usually about like 13, 000, let's just
[00:15:43] Jason Hennessey: say, So they have to bring in five, five ish deals a month.
[00:15:47] Jason Hennessey: exactly. It's not a lot of clients, right?
[00:15:49] Jason Hennessey: So that's
[00:15:49] Jason Hennessey: the [00:15:50] key. They might, they might take 20 appointments to close five or four.
[00:15:53] Corey Quinn: I'm curious, like they have two different titles, director of sales, director of business development. What's the difference between those two
[00:15:58] Corey Quinn: roles?
[00:15:59] Jason Hennessey: One [00:16:00] spends more time on the road, you know, at conferences and stuff like that. Whereas the other one is kind of staying back and, taking, you know, a lot of the sales calls. But they both. We'll build [00:16:10] relationships and um, and then nurture the relationships and ultimately close the deals. Yeah
[00:16:15] Corey Quinn: At what
[00:16:15] Corey Quinn: point at your, um, at the current agency, did you hire your first [00:16:20] salesperson?
[00:16:20] Jason Hennessey: they've both been with me for about Four or five years i'd say um, and It's funny. Both of them have relationships with me. Uh, rob coleman was a [00:16:30] former client of everspark interactive, right? So he was on the other side of hiring an agency You Um, at a, at a, at a golf, uh, [00:16:40] magazine called Global
[00:16:40] Jason Hennessey: Golf Post,
[00:16:41] Jason Hennessey: and he worked at the American Junior Golf
[00:16:43] Jason Hennessey: Association. and then Brian Mossman, uh, was, uh, somebody that had rented a home of mine in, [00:16:50] uh, Vegas, uh, for many years. he did, sales, uh, with timeshares and stuff like
[00:16:56] Jason Hennessey: that. Right.
[00:16:56] Jason Hennessey: And so
[00:16:57] Jason Hennessey: probably one
[00:16:57] Jason Hennessey: of the best salespersons I ever met. [00:17:00] And, um, and so it, when the opportunity kind of surfaced, I'm like, let's explore this.
[00:17:05] Jason Hennessey: He knew nothing about SEO when he started, but he spent a lot of time teaching [00:17:10] himself,
[00:17:10] Jason Hennessey: like watching videos. He was like a student
[00:17:12] Jason Hennessey: And now he's probably just as good of a salesperson than I am.
[00:17:16] Jason Hennessey: Um,
[00:17:16] Corey Quinn: that's awesome. And these were your first two sales, sales [00:17:20] hires.
[00:17:20] Jason Hennessey: I'm not sure who came
[00:17:21] Jason Hennessey: first, if
[00:17:21] Jason Hennessey: it was Brian or Rob, um, but they came right around the same time, I'd
[00:17:24] Corey Quinn: That's amazing.
[00:17:26] Corey Quinn: I
[00:17:26] Corey Quinn: asked that question frequently because usually. [00:17:30] They don't uh, they don't stick around that first salesperson,
[00:17:32] Corey Quinn: but,
[00:17:32] Corey Quinn: uh, somehow you you figured it out
[00:17:34] Jason Hennessey: Yeah, we, we did have one, we only brought in one other salesperson, um, who [00:17:40] didn't necessarily
[00:17:40] Jason Hennessey: work out, but we
[00:17:41] Jason Hennessey: learned that pretty quickly and then we just kind of pivoted,
[00:17:44] Corey Quinn: given your experience with these two agencies now what point In an agency lifecycle would [00:17:50] you typically if you're going to do this again? What would you bring a salesperson in and what would be some of the characteristics you would screen for? To be able to find the right person
[00:17:57] Jason Hennessey: well, I think initially, right, it just comes down [00:18:00] to, uh, to your cash flow, your budget,
[00:18:02] Jason Hennessey: right? You know, initially
[00:18:03] Jason Hennessey: you're probably, when you're starting out, you are the salesperson, you are the account manager, you're everything, right? but I would say, you [00:18:10] know, once you can start to look at your time and, and start to realize, where is my time most valuable? in most cases it might just be sales, right?
[00:18:18] Jason Hennessey: You know, you
[00:18:19] Jason Hennessey: might delegate [00:18:20] everything else and you are the salesperson,
[00:18:22] Jason Hennessey: right? And, and
[00:18:22] Jason Hennessey: you might be the salesperson for the first. Five years of the business. And, and, but that's, that's it. Right. But sometimes if you're not a [00:18:30] good salesperson, there's probably a lot of agency owners that
[00:18:32] Jason Hennessey: they're really
[00:18:33] Jason Hennessey: passionate about the SEO or pay per click.
[00:18:35] Jason Hennessey: Right. And they'd much rather be like tied in data, right. Then on sales calls. Right.
[00:18:39] Jason Hennessey: [00:18:40] And
[00:18:40] Jason Hennessey: so if you realize that that is not really your zone of genius, well, then, you know, get out of the way as early as possible so that you could focus on what you're more passionate about and where you're going [00:18:50] to, you know, add more value to the company.
[00:18:52] Jason Hennessey: And then try to find somebody that's an amazing salesperson. And then, you know, where that's their passion and they have experience and, so I [00:19:00] guess it really depends on the characteristics of the owner, just being self aware of,
[00:19:04] Jason Hennessey: of where you
[00:19:05] Jason Hennessey: are, I guess, in, in that.
[00:19:07] Jason Hennessey: Yeah.
[00:19:07] Corey Quinn: it's a who not how type of thing
[00:19:08] Jason Hennessey: Exactly.
[00:19:09] Jason Hennessey: [00:19:10] Yeah. what about, In bringing in a new
[00:19:12] Corey Quinn: salesperson, you have, you have these two guys that have been really successful. It sounds like when with you for quite a bit, uh, one that didn't work out so well, [00:19:20] if you were going to hire another salesperson, like what would
[00:19:22] Corey Quinn: be some
[00:19:23] Corey Quinn: of the
[00:19:23] Corey Quinn: the
[00:19:23] Corey Quinn: attributes you'd be really looking for?
[00:19:25] Jason Hennessey: Probably somebody that's really passionate about, um, [00:19:30] about SEO, I'd say, just because like when we, when we sell, like, we don't really,
[00:19:35] Jason Hennessey: hard sell, right? I mean, like, you know, we educate, right? And so, [00:19:40] uh, that's a big component of who we are
[00:19:41] Jason Hennessey: and, and
[00:19:42] Jason Hennessey: we're, we're so willing to say no if we're not a right fit, right?
[00:19:46] Jason Hennessey: Or the budget isn't there, like, That's why when you said like, you know, most [00:19:50] people say that I've got a good reputation is because I've never really mismanaged expectations.
[00:19:55] Jason Hennessey: And and if I
[00:19:56] Jason Hennessey: ever did, I really try to course correct very quickly, [00:20:00] um, to preserve my reputation. And so that would be really important is to find somebody that, um, that is passionate about SEO, that can get on a call, that can [00:20:10] educate, teach, leverage some of our, our case studies to help sell. and then from there, you know, uh, if there's a good fit, then we look at, you know, [00:20:20] having a second call where we look at proposals and options on how to work together. And then we close
[00:20:25] Jason Hennessey: the deal.
[00:20:25] Jason Hennessey: Right. So I would say, the next person that we probably would hire would have somebody that has a lot of [00:20:30] passion, but I think we really need help just
[00:20:31] Jason Hennessey: in sales support.
[00:20:32] Jason Hennessey: I think that's a weakness right now is, um, you know, just kind of looking at all the leads, which one died, which
[00:20:39] Jason Hennessey: one
[00:20:39] Jason Hennessey: do [00:20:40] we need to follow up on? Like, there's a lot of, I think, miss opportunities right now. And so probably having somebody to help with
[00:20:46] Jason Hennessey: sales support would be
[00:20:47] Jason Hennessey: a more immediate hire, I'd
[00:20:48] Jason Hennessey: say.
[00:20:48] Corey Quinn: do you think it's important [00:20:50] for, let's say an agency that's targeting attorneys that they should hire a salesperson that has a legal background
[00:20:56] Corey Quinn: or any,
[00:20:56] Corey Quinn: any kind of exposure to legal industry? Or is that, is that a nice to have a [00:21:00] must have like, what, what are your thoughts on that?
[00:21:01] Jason Hennessey: Yeah. So that would be somebody that we would put more
[00:21:04] Jason Hennessey: on the business
[00:21:04] Jason Hennessey: development side, right? Where they are going to the conferences. They already know a [00:21:10] lot of people at the conferences, right? They can, you know, get a seat at some of the tables a lot easier. Um, right. So I think those
[00:21:18] Jason Hennessey: are the people that,
[00:21:19] Jason Hennessey: you know, are [00:21:20] more building deeper relationships, we could teach them the SEO side of it.
[00:21:24] Jason Hennessey: Um, but yeah, I think that's a, a, definitely a, a, a strength, in a company
[00:21:29] Jason Hennessey: is having somebody [00:21:30] that has the, those relationships already. [00:21:40] [00:21:50] [00:22:00] [00:22:10]
[00:22:13] Corey Quinn: How do people
[00:22:14] Corey Quinn: find, find you and when they become a lead, like where
[00:22:17] Corey Quinn: are they,
[00:22:18] Corey Quinn: how do they find out about you [00:22:20] today?
[00:22:20] Jason Hennessey: most cases,
[00:22:21] Jason Hennessey: uh,
[00:22:22] Jason Hennessey: it's through a referral, right, you
[00:22:25] Jason Hennessey: know, whether it's Crisp or
[00:22:28] Jason Hennessey: another attorney [00:22:30] or Filevine or whoever, right, you know, um, like we've got such deep relationships with so many other, um, uh, partners that that is a big [00:22:40] source of, of leads, and usually when those leads come in, they're very warm, very hot, right?
[00:22:46] Jason Hennessey: And,
[00:22:47] Corey Quinn: Pre qualified.
[00:22:48] Jason Hennessey: Yeah, very pre qualified, right? [00:22:50] Um, so that's one way. the book that I wrote has been a big marketing strategy for us. Um, so not only do I sell the book on [00:23:00] Amazon,
[00:23:00] Jason Hennessey: I also
[00:23:01] Jason Hennessey: give the book away for free, uh, where I even cover the cost of shipping and handling. We probably mail out between three and four hundred books per [00:23:10] month.
[00:23:10] Jason Hennessey: Um, we run Facebook ads. Um,
[00:23:13] Jason Hennessey: we actually will pick a market,
[00:23:15] Jason Hennessey: like. I don't know. If we don't work with anybody in Phoenix, a [00:23:20] criminal defense lawyer, we
[00:23:20] Jason Hennessey: might find a
[00:23:21] Jason Hennessey: hundred criminal defense lawyers in Phoenix and send them out a book, right? With a nice cover letter. and there's a lot of goodwill that
[00:23:27] Jason Hennessey: comes from that.
[00:23:28] Jason Hennessey: Like sometimes we might
[00:23:29] Jason Hennessey: not land [00:23:30] a client, but sometimes we're educating people about how to make a better decision.
[00:23:34] Jason Hennessey: Sometimes they take that
[00:23:35] Jason Hennessey: and post it on social media. So they're promoted that way. that's another strategy that we [00:23:40] deploy to bring in new leads. And then the third is we just started to take our own SEO seriously.
[00:23:45] Jason Hennessey: Um, and so I've been kind of, uh, immersed in, [00:23:50] uh, in basically trying to rank for some of our own keywords like law firm SEO. Um, and so, you know, you'll notice if you look at Ahrefs, you'll see like there's a big [00:24:00] spike there and that's because I started to pay more
[00:24:01] Jason Hennessey: attention to SEO.
[00:24:03] Jason Hennessey: And so we've been generating a lot of leads by way of that.
[00:24:07] Jason Hennessey: Um, you know, but a lot of times those [00:24:10] leads are not. pre qualified, they're more cold, right? And so sometimes it might be like a
[00:24:15] Jason Hennessey: one person,
[00:24:16] Jason Hennessey: you know, immigration lawyer in a small city that doesn't have the budget to [00:24:20] afford Hennessy Digital, right? You know what I mean? So anyway, we're, we're learning on how to kind of steer that, that course here, I guess, if you will.
[00:24:28] Corey Quinn: That's awesome. So for, for the [00:24:30] book, the book you're referencing, I believe is the law firm SEO book.
[00:24:33] Jason Hennessey: That's correct. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:35] Corey Quinn: so will you, let's say you, you have a market where you don't have enough [00:24:40] penetration or enough clients. You're like, ah, let's go, let's go build a list. And then how do you send them out? Like because I, have a book, I should try this.
[00:24:47] Corey Quinn: Like, so you just put them in a, uh, in an envelope [00:24:50] with a, with a letter.
[00:24:51] Jason Hennessey: Yeah, yeah, you're, you're, first of all, I admire what your
[00:24:55] Jason Hennessey: book looks
[00:24:56] Jason Hennessey: like because you've got like a freaking box with a cookie
[00:24:58] Jason Hennessey: in it. I
[00:24:59] Jason Hennessey: mean,
[00:24:59] Jason Hennessey: it's just
[00:24:59] Jason Hennessey: [00:25:00] awesome, right? I love your strategy, like, you know, um, so don't get me wrong. We're just sending out a lot more.
[00:25:05] Jason Hennessey: So yeah, it just comes in
[00:25:06] Jason Hennessey: like a, in an envelope and there's a letter, you know, it
[00:25:09] Jason Hennessey: says something like, [00:25:10] you don't know much,
[00:25:10] Jason Hennessey: you might not know much about us, but boy, do we know a little bit about you, right.
[00:25:14] Jason Hennessey: And so, and so those are the ones that are like, unsolicited, I guess, right. Where they just kind of get a book in the [00:25:20] mail.
[00:25:20] Jason Hennessey: and then there's
[00:25:20] Jason Hennessey: those that requested the book, right. And that's a little different, but yeah, that's basically it. You know, we've got a third party company that we use
[00:25:27] Jason Hennessey: that kind of,
[00:25:28] Jason Hennessey: stores the inventory,
[00:25:29] Jason Hennessey: ships [00:25:30] everything for
[00:25:30] Jason Hennessey: us, um, and, uh, it's a nice process that we've
[00:25:33] Jason Hennessey: got.
[00:25:33] Corey Quinn: that's awesome. And then you were in another book, honest SEO. When did that come before or after the, uh, the law firm [00:25:40] SEO?
[00:25:40] Jason Hennessey: That came after, um, you know, I always wanted to have a book, you know, that would be like
[00:25:46] Jason Hennessey: in a
[00:25:46] Jason Hennessey: bookstore that would be in an airport. Um, and so, [00:25:50] uh, you know, I know that, you know, there's no law firm SEO section in a bookstore, you know? And so, you know, that was such a micro
[00:25:57] Jason Hennessey: niche
[00:25:58] Jason Hennessey: and I spent so much time kind of [00:26:00] writing this book.
[00:26:00] Jason Hennessey: That I felt that a lot of the lessons were applicable. And so I wanted to kind of make one
[00:26:05] Jason Hennessey: that's more
[00:26:05] Jason Hennessey: general. and so honest SDO was kind of like an abridged [00:26:10] version of law firm SEO. that was just a different strategy. that
[00:26:13] Jason Hennessey: did end up in,
[00:26:14] Jason Hennessey: you know, in some, uh, in some bookstores that ended up in some airports and, uh,
[00:26:18] Corey Quinn: that's
[00:26:18] Corey Quinn: awesome. [00:26:20] Congratulations.
[00:26:20] Jason Hennessey: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.
[00:26:21] Corey Quinn: not easy to
[00:26:22] Corey Quinn: do. I've looked into that. So today you, you have a well respected agency doing 20 million. I'm sure you know, hundreds of clients, [00:26:30] uh, maybe thousands, based on
[00:26:31] Corey Quinn: the fact that a lot of your business is referral based, you probably don't have to, have a lot of sort of positioning built into those referrals.
[00:26:38] Corey Quinn: In other words, it's not
[00:26:39] Corey Quinn: a
[00:26:39] Corey Quinn: [00:26:40] transactional kind of sale. Uh, how do you differentiate like the, the industry that you're in, um, Is very competitive is there's a lot of very, [00:26:50] uh, sophisticated Agencies that are also going
[00:26:53] Corey Quinn: after the same
[00:26:53] Corey Quinn: market I kind of feel bad for the attorneys cause they have to like they get inundated by all these these agencies, but [00:27:00] You're probably a small handful of uh of agencies who are really elite as it comes to, when it comes to this How do you differentiate like how do you position yourself?
[00:27:08] Corey Quinn: Like when someone [00:27:10] says like what makes you guys different?
[00:27:11] Jason Hennessey: you know, I think, I think just positioning ourselves, um, right. Um, like we've always positioned ourselves as being like a, as a very expensive [00:27:20] agency.
[00:27:20] Jason Hennessey: Um, and so
[00:27:22] Jason Hennessey: I think that's kind of the reputation that we have. Right. Right. Right. And in most
[00:27:27] Jason Hennessey: cases, when people
[00:27:28] Jason Hennessey: introduce us, they'll say, [00:27:30] Hey, listen, I'm going to introduce you to Jason.
[00:27:31] Jason Hennessey: They're not the cheapest agency, but you know, if you want results, you're going to have
[00:27:34] Jason Hennessey: to
[00:27:34] Jason Hennessey: pay for
[00:27:35] Jason Hennessey: them. right. Kind of a thing.
[00:27:36] Corey Quinn: her.
[00:27:37] Jason Hennessey: so
[00:27:38] Jason Hennessey: that's usually how it, you know, [00:27:40] the leads are kind of set up. And so when we get on a call there, you know, um, they're not expecting a 3, 000 per month proposed proposal.
[00:27:47] Jason Hennessey: Right. Um, and [00:27:50] so, and the reason why we get the results that we get is because we have the right budget, right. Um, and so it kind of goes hand in hand. Right. We're willing to say [00:28:00] no if
[00:28:00] Jason Hennessey: we don't
[00:28:00] Jason Hennessey: feel that we have the right budget to meet the expectation of that client in a particular market. In fact, we will refer even some of our own [00:28:10] competitors in some cases, right, that might have a better product for them, right?
[00:28:14] Jason Hennessey: Because we're not really set up
[00:28:16] Jason Hennessey: as an
[00:28:16] Jason Hennessey: agency with 3, 000 per [00:28:20] month client. Not saying that there's not a market for that, it's just
[00:28:23] Jason Hennessey: that's not who we're set
[00:28:24] Jason Hennessey: up for, right? And so. I think that's really
[00:28:27] Jason Hennessey: it. And so when the perception
[00:28:28] Jason Hennessey: is that, um, [00:28:30] that
[00:28:30] Jason Hennessey: we're
[00:28:30] Jason Hennessey: not a cheap agency, but we get good results, um, like you said, it doesn't require.
[00:28:36] Jason Hennessey: Hundreds of
[00:28:37] Jason Hennessey: leads, right? You know, we only need to close like [00:28:40] four or five
[00:28:40] Jason Hennessey: leads in a
[00:28:41] Jason Hennessey: month. Right. And so, um, it's not that much. And, and our growth is, is, uh, by design, we could grow a lot faster
[00:28:48] Jason Hennessey: if we created another [00:28:50] product. I probably,
[00:28:51] Jason Hennessey: I
[00:28:52] Jason Hennessey: probably
[00:28:52] Jason Hennessey: could have a 50 million agency if, you know, I took on 5, 000 per month clients and I said yes to [00:29:00] everything, but I could assure
[00:29:01] Jason Hennessey: you that my reputation would
[00:29:02] Jason Hennessey: not be what it is if I
[00:29:03] Jason Hennessey: did that.
[00:29:04] Corey Quinn: you
[00:29:04] Corey Quinn: recently, published and gave a keynote talk. It's called I [00:29:10] built a 20 million agency from zero. 11 lessons I learned. Thank you for sharing that with me. I wanted to dive into a couple of those lessons. I think they'd be useful for this audience.
[00:29:19] Corey Quinn: [00:29:20] Um,
[00:29:20] Corey Quinn: you, you mentioned actually here already, but, could you elaborate on this concept of your
[00:29:25] Corey Quinn: zone of,
[00:29:25] Corey Quinn: of genius? How does it work and how did it impact your sort of [00:29:30] leadership?
[00:29:30] Jason Hennessey: so everybody's got their kind of, uh, their zone of genius, right? Like I said, like,
[00:29:33] Jason Hennessey: like, I
[00:29:34] Jason Hennessey: knew that, Accounting when I was in college and I was struggling to pass accounting. I knew that wasn't going to be [00:29:40] a zone of genius. Right. You know, for sure. Like I've, I kind of had it all figured out when I was in college that I just need to struggle and
[00:29:46] Jason Hennessey: get by and
[00:29:47] Jason Hennessey: hopefully the kids sitting next to me is [00:29:50] smart.
[00:29:50] Jason Hennessey: Right. So I can kind of get
[00:29:51] Jason Hennessey: through this
[00:29:52] Jason Hennessey: class because I knew I was going to hire an accountant. Right. That wasn't really my skill. Right. So I think. Your own nature,
[00:29:59] Jason Hennessey: you kind of [00:30:00] know, like what, where, what your strengths
[00:30:01] Jason Hennessey: are and what your passions are. Um, but then you really have to
[00:30:05] Jason Hennessey: do an exercise,
[00:30:06] Jason Hennessey: Um, and so for me, um, what I did was I [00:30:10] basically spent like 30 days where I just kind of jotted down everything that I worked on. if I spent three hours checking my email, I'd write down checking email, [00:30:20] right?
[00:30:20] Jason Hennessey: If I spent, uh, an hour on a
[00:30:22] Jason Hennessey: sales call, I would write that
[00:30:23] Jason Hennessey: down. If I spent two hours
[00:30:25] Jason Hennessey: like, doing account management, right? I would just kind of jot down everything that I did. And then [00:30:30] there'd
[00:30:30] Jason Hennessey: be
[00:30:30] Jason Hennessey: four, basically, um, uh, rows, I guess, basically, you label it as, I as incompetent, C as competent, [00:30:40] um, E as excellent, and U, U as unique,
[00:30:42] Jason Hennessey: right?
[00:30:43] Jason Hennessey: And so, if I was doing accounting, guess what? That's going to be incompetent, right? Not really good at this. [00:30:50] If I'm checking email, I'm competent at that, right?
[00:30:53] Jason Hennessey: I could do that. If I'm on a sales call, I'm excellent at that, right? If I'm writing my book. That's [00:31:00] unique to me, right? I can't, I guess I could like have somebody write a book,
[00:31:04] Jason Hennessey: but if I really
[00:31:05] Jason Hennessey: wanted my book to be published by me, like that's unique to me. Right. And then the next thing you [00:31:10] do is
[00:31:10] Jason Hennessey: you just write
[00:31:10] Jason Hennessey: down like, how much would you be willing to pay somebody to do this task?
[00:31:14] Jason Hennessey: Right. And so maybe I'd pay somebody 50 an hour
[00:31:18] Jason Hennessey: to do accounting, I
[00:31:19] Jason Hennessey: might pay [00:31:20] somebody 20 an hour to check my email. I might, right. And then you'll quickly realize that you are probably a 35 per hour employee, right? When you [00:31:30] average all this stuff out. Um, and so now you have a list of things that you can do to try to delegate all of this
[00:31:38] Jason Hennessey: stuff away from you so
[00:31:39] Jason Hennessey: that you can [00:31:40] spend more time on your zone of genius.
[00:31:42] Jason Hennessey: In my case it was writing books, doing videos, right? You know, um, like that's kind of what I love to do. Um, educating. Um, [00:31:50] and so I was able to get an executive assistant it was very easy to write the job description because I knew everything that they were
[00:31:57] Jason Hennessey: going to do based
[00:31:58] Jason Hennessey: on everything that I was
[00:31:59] Jason Hennessey: doing. [00:32:00] Right? so from there I hired an executive assistant and then, uh, we,
[00:32:03] Jason Hennessey: delegated some of the other stuff that I wasn't best at. And now. I was able to block off a lot of my [00:32:10] time to be able to, um, to do things that I felt I was more passionate about that. Things that gave me
[00:32:16] Jason Hennessey: energy
[00:32:16] Jason Hennessey: and didn't take energy away, I guess,
[00:32:18] Jason Hennessey: Right.
[00:32:18] Corey Quinn: does the rest of your company [00:32:20] follow that, that, that concept where you have maybe the folks, the executives and everyone else really clear on what their zone of Um, there's zone of genius,
[00:32:29] Corey Quinn: I was gonna say zone of [00:32:30] something else, but
[00:32:30] Jason Hennessey: Yeah, son of genius, right? Yeah. Um,
[00:32:32] Corey Quinn: how does that play out in the organization?
[00:32:34] Jason Hennessey: in
[00:32:34] Jason Hennessey: most cases, like we try to hire people based on our needs and based [00:32:40] on their zone of genius. So in most cases, they kind of already fit that, um, that criteria based on like what our need was and who we hired for that role. but in
[00:32:48] Jason Hennessey: some cases, yeah,
[00:32:49] Jason Hennessey: we might take [00:32:50] like in a, you know, an executive and get them an assistant and start to off board some of their, you know, uh, more tedious tasks, right?
[00:32:59] Jason Hennessey: Um, [00:33:00] in fact. My executive assistant has two executive assistants, right? You know, like, yeah,
[00:33:05] Corey Quinn: Good example.
[00:33:06] Jason Hennessey: exactly.
[00:33:07] Jason Hennessey: Yeah.
[00:33:07] Corey Quinn: I think you
[00:33:07] Corey Quinn: mentioned early in the video about [00:33:10] how you love to sort of hire excellent, smart people kind get outta their way.
[00:33:15] Jason Hennessey: Get out of the way. Yeah.
[00:33:16] Corey Quinn: And
[00:33:16] Corey Quinn: when it, when it comes to recruiting these, these folks,
[00:33:19] Corey Quinn: like how do you
[00:33:19] Corey Quinn: [00:33:20] find, these type
[00:33:20] Corey Quinn: of people and
[00:33:21] Corey Quinn: how do
[00:33:21] Corey Quinn: you like how do you screen for them in the interview process?
[00:33:24] Corey Quinn: Yeah
[00:33:28] Jason Hennessey: like, I, you know, I think, [00:33:30] uh, a big part of, uh, of not growing quickly earlier on was, um, because I was the person hiring people. I was the person interviewing [00:33:40] people. I was the person giving out fancy titles that, you know, people didn't necessarily deserve yet,
[00:33:45] Jason Hennessey: right? which is a big mistake that most, um, [00:33:50] entrepreneurs make is like, they want to have a big ego and they're like, Oh, this is my, you know, VP of marketing. Right. Meanwhile, there's only three employees. Right. You know, like, so [00:34:00] anyway, you kind of have to be careful of that. That was a lesson that I learned.
[00:34:02] Jason Hennessey: Um, but, um, you know, really what happened is we hired somebody that was more professional and had a lot
[00:34:08] Jason Hennessey: more experience.
[00:34:09] Jason Hennessey: ~Um, and so, um,~ [00:34:10] She, uh, became, you know, uh, our senior,
[00:34:13] Jason Hennessey: VP
[00:34:13] Jason Hennessey: of people success. She didn't start there with that
[00:34:16] Jason Hennessey: title, um, but she grew into that title
[00:34:18] Jason Hennessey: and she just came [00:34:20] in and the first thing that she did
[00:34:21] Jason Hennessey: was she looked at,
[00:34:22] Jason Hennessey: um, you know, what do people make?
[00:34:24] Jason Hennessey: What are our benefits? Um,
[00:34:27] Jason Hennessey: what should
[00:34:27] Jason Hennessey: people be making based on their [00:34:30] specific roles? We had to go in and make adjustments based on like some
[00:34:33] Jason Hennessey: of
[00:34:33] Jason Hennessey: the, uh, research reports and brought everybody up to standards,
[00:34:37] Jason Hennessey: right? Because.
[00:34:38] Jason Hennessey: Transcribed It's not a one thing of [00:34:40] recruiting the right people, but the harder part is making sure that people stay and that they're happy.
[00:34:44] Jason Hennessey: Right. All right. And so, um, so she's done a very good job of that. Every year at the end of the year, [00:34:50] we look at our profit
[00:34:50] Jason Hennessey: margin and we, she fights
[00:34:52] Jason Hennessey: for budget so that we can increase the benefits of
[00:34:56] Jason Hennessey: our staff. Um, and
[00:34:58] Jason Hennessey: you know, that's really what [00:35:00] you want in an organization is somebody that's fighting for the people and wants to see people succeed and give
[00:35:05] Jason Hennessey: them more
[00:35:05] Jason Hennessey: benefits, you know,
[00:35:06] Corey Quinn: I believe your your organization is is it a hundred percent virtual?
[00:35:09] Jason Hennessey: It is. Yeah, we [00:35:10] do have a, we have a studio here in LA, but, you know, it's not mandatory that anybody works out of that studio.
[00:35:15] Corey Quinn: How do you
[00:35:16] Corey Quinn: maintain company culture and a hundred percent virtual business?
[00:35:19] Jason Hennessey: You'd be [00:35:20] surprised. Um,
[00:35:21] Jason Hennessey: you know, you, you would think it's, it's complicated, uh, but it's really not. I mean, like, we live and die in Slack. Um, so that's where a lot of the communication [00:35:30] takes place. We have a recognition channel. Well, first thing, let me back up a second is, is establishing your core value, you know, your core
[00:35:36] Jason Hennessey: values, right?
[00:35:37] Jason Hennessey: And it's
[00:35:37] Jason Hennessey: one thing to
[00:35:38] Jason Hennessey: just set core values and [00:35:40] never look at them.
[00:35:40] Jason Hennessey: Um, we truly live and
[00:35:42] Jason Hennessey: die by our core values. Like there is a recognition channel on our Slack where you recognize somebody for living a core value, right? And [00:35:50] that happens all day long. There's probably. from today where somebody else is recognizing somebody for core value.
[00:35:56] Jason Hennessey: Right. I have, I myself have to live the core values, right? There [00:36:00] was a client that I had to fire
[00:36:02] Jason Hennessey: that was paying us
[00:36:03] Jason Hennessey: 30, 000 per month because he was abusing my staff. Right. And so it was a [00:36:10] marketing or a new marketing director is trying to make a name for himself and. And I just wasn't going to put up for that.
[00:36:15] Jason Hennessey: And, uh, and so I heard it was happening. I jumped on the call. He was, I seen what [00:36:20] was happening and I just terminated the relationship. I didn't care like that. I was giving up
[00:36:24] Jason Hennessey: 30, 000
[00:36:25] Jason Hennessey: per month in revenue. I wasn't going to let my staff take that abuse, you know?
[00:36:28] Jason Hennessey: Um, and so that's
[00:36:29] Jason Hennessey: [00:36:30] me doing what's right always.
[00:36:31] Jason Hennessey: Right. And that's one of our core values. Um, and so, and then from there we do all
[00:36:36] Jason Hennessey: kinds of fun stuff like, you
[00:36:37] Jason Hennessey: know, whether it's a Halloween costume [00:36:40] contest or. A
[00:36:40] Jason Hennessey: cookie contest where
[00:36:42] Jason Hennessey: everybody's baking cookies and showing their cook like, we do all kinds of fun stuff that, that we do virtually as though we
[00:36:48] Jason Hennessey: were just being in
[00:36:49] Jason Hennessey: person, you
[00:36:49] Corey Quinn: That's [00:36:50] awesome. And It Yeah. It works. Yeah.
[00:36:52] Corey Quinn: it starts with the core values living the core values being the example all those things are really powerful
[00:36:57] Jason Hennessey: Exactly.
[00:36:58] Corey Quinn: You talk about having [00:37:00] a three year vivid
[00:37:01] Corey Quinn: vision. Can you talk to
[00:37:03] Corey Quinn: us about, talk to us about what that is and what your process is?
[00:37:06] Jason Hennessey: Yeah. So that was something
[00:37:07] Jason Hennessey: I didn't realize I needed. Um, [00:37:10] but it was so powerful. Uh, my coach, uh, I manifested
[00:37:13] Jason Hennessey: my coach. His name's Cameron Herold. He wrote a couple
[00:37:15] Jason Hennessey: great Great, great author.
[00:37:17] Jason Hennessey: Yeah, he even wrote the book called Vivid Vision, right? And [00:37:20] so, Um, he did a, uh, a TED talk about raising kids to be entrepreneurs instead of doctors and lawyers and, and that was okay, right?
[00:37:29] Jason Hennessey: And so I was like, [00:37:30] wow, this really resonated with me. I'm like, at some point, you know, 10 years ago, I watched this video, I'm like, this guy's going to be my coach, right? And so when we were at 5 million and I wanted to go to 10
[00:37:39] Jason Hennessey: million, [00:37:40] I'm
[00:37:40] Jason Hennessey: like, I'm bringing Cameron in, I'm going to see if he can coach me.
[00:37:42] Jason Hennessey: And so, like I said, I manifested that. And so one of the first things that he said was.
[00:37:47] Jason Hennessey: A, do you have an executive assistant?
[00:37:48] Jason Hennessey: I'm like, no. He goes, okay, [00:37:50] well, you are the executive assistant, so you need one. Right. And then the second thing he says, do you have a vision? Like, where are you going? Like, where
[00:37:57] Jason Hennessey: are you
[00:37:57] Jason Hennessey: going in one year?
[00:37:58] Jason Hennessey: Where are you going right in three years? I'm like, I [00:38:00] don't know. Like, we're just, we're just, we show up to work and we start working. He goes, no, no, no. He goes,
[00:38:04] Jason Hennessey: if you don't
[00:38:04] Jason Hennessey: know where
[00:38:05] Jason Hennessey: you're going, nobody else
[00:38:06] Jason Hennessey: in the company knows where you're going.
[00:38:07] Jason Hennessey: Right. You need to be very
[00:38:09] Jason Hennessey: clear there. [00:38:10] And so he basically told me.
[00:38:12] Jason Hennessey: to go
[00:38:12] Jason Hennessey: stay at like a fancy hotel in Beverly Hills and just kind of check in for two days and sit there at the pool, you know, [00:38:20] drinking, you know, some coffee and, and anything that comes to mind just kind of documented in a bullet format, right? Okay. I envision, um, we're going to be [00:38:30] fortune
[00:38:30] Jason Hennessey: best places
[00:38:31] Jason Hennessey: to work.
[00:38:31] Jason Hennessey: Okay, great. Perfect. Just put it in there. Right. And then, so I just basically did that and, um, and being very specific. [00:38:40] And then he said, okay, now that you have that, then, um, you know, give this to, uh, somebody that's a copywriter, but not just a copywriter, like
[00:38:48] Jason Hennessey: a storyteller. Right. So [00:38:50] then
[00:38:50] Jason Hennessey: basically we gave that to a storyteller.
[00:38:52] Jason Hennessey: She then took all of those bullets and conveyed it into like
[00:38:55] Jason Hennessey: a full story.
[00:38:57] Jason Hennessey: right? It's like, okay, great. Now that you have that, now give it [00:39:00] to the creative department and let them make that
[00:39:02] Jason Hennessey: come true visually.
[00:39:03] Jason Hennessey: Right? And
[00:39:04] Jason Hennessey: I'm like,
[00:39:04] Jason Hennessey: okay, cool. So they did that. That's it. And then from there, then he said, okay, great.
[00:39:08] Jason Hennessey: Now put it on the [00:39:10] website, make it code and put it on the website. And so when you go to Hennessy. com and then you go to about, um, there's the full kind of, uh, where we're going.
[00:39:18] Jason Hennessey: It's our vivid vision. [00:39:20] And then, you know,
[00:39:21] Jason Hennessey: now our whole company operates based on that because everybody knows where we're going in three years.
[00:39:27] Jason Hennessey: And, you know, everybody from our [00:39:30] clients to our competitors, to our, our staff, And so we basically build our OKRs
[00:39:36] Jason Hennessey: around that, right?
[00:39:37] Jason Hennessey: We were fortunate best places
[00:39:39] Jason Hennessey: to work, [00:39:40] right? We would have never submitted for that if I didn't put it on the Vivid Vision. So anyway, so it's very important to be very clear and
[00:39:47] Jason Hennessey: specific. And
[00:39:48] Jason Hennessey: even if [00:39:50] you miss the mark on 90 percent of the
[00:39:52] Jason Hennessey: Vivid Vision, if you hit the mark on 10%, that's still a major accomplishment.
[00:39:57] Jason Hennessey: Right? [00:40:00] Yeah.
[00:40:01] Corey Quinn: what you want and writing down. Um, There was a period of my life when I had just finished business school and I was not dating and I [00:40:10] was not interested in that at all. I
[00:40:12] Corey Quinn: was focused
[00:40:12] Corey Quinn: on career. It's, it's
[00:40:14] Corey Quinn: like, that
[00:40:14] Corey Quinn: was my focus.
[00:40:15] Corey Quinn: No time for anything else. And that was great. I made a lot of [00:40:20] progress in my career. And then eventually I was like, okay, I think I'm ready to, you know, find a significant relationship. And so a friend of mine,
[00:40:27] Corey Quinn: Said, you know,
[00:40:28] Corey Quinn: let's get, pull out a [00:40:30] pad of paper and write out your must haves, like the things you absolutely want in a significant other or partner.
[00:40:37] Corey Quinn: And what are the things that you're must not haves. [00:40:40] Right. And, uh, I, at
[00:40:42] Corey Quinn: the time I
[00:40:43] Corey Quinn: joined a website or it's a dating site,
[00:40:46] Corey Quinn: Old school
[00:40:47] Corey Quinn: it's called match. com. You [00:40:50] Bye
[00:40:50] Jason Hennessey: love it. Mm hmm.
[00:40:52] Corey Quinn: And it's like a directory for those, not familiar, it's like a directory and you type it, like you put in like all the criteria. I want this height from like, you know, this height to this height, hair [00:41:00] color, background, interest, education level, so on and so forth.
[00:41:03] Corey Quinn: I put all the criteria and exactly what I wanted, exactly what I didn't want was excluded. And I hit search and there was [00:41:10] one person that came through that search and that's the person I'm married to
[00:41:14] Jason Hennessey: Oh my god. How cool is that? See it's so powerful. In fact, I actually [00:41:20] similar story I had a podcast where I interviewed
[00:41:22] Jason Hennessey: a
[00:41:24] Jason Hennessey: Influencer her name is
[00:41:25] Jason Hennessey: Natasha Graziano and it's a podcast with me and her
[00:41:29] Jason Hennessey: and so
[00:41:29] Jason Hennessey: she did [00:41:30] a very similar
[00:41:30] Jason Hennessey: exercise
[00:41:31] Jason Hennessey: where Not only
[00:41:32] Jason Hennessey: did she list
[00:41:33] Jason Hennessey: out
[00:41:33] Jason Hennessey: the things,
[00:41:34] Jason Hennessey: like I want somebody that is funny.
[00:41:35] Jason Hennessey: I want somebody that's compassionate I want somebody that's this Well, she started to change [00:41:40] her life to be more like the person that she wanted. Right. And that
[00:41:44] Jason Hennessey: basically increased
[00:41:46] Jason Hennessey: the frequency of her being able to connect
[00:41:48] Corey Quinn: It's true. You attracted it
[00:41:49] Jason Hennessey: [00:41:50] Yeah. So that's kind of like even taking
[00:41:51] Jason Hennessey: that one step further, right?
[00:41:53] Jason Hennessey: But yeah.
[00:41:54] Corey Quinn: That's beautiful. Uh, you mentioned about people don't fail, systems fail.
[00:41:58] Jason Hennessey: Yes.
[00:41:59] Corey Quinn: [00:42:00] How do you identify broken systems in the company?
[00:42:02] Jason Hennessey: Yeah, that's the thing, like in order to kind of get to the
[00:42:04] Jason Hennessey: next
[00:42:05] Jason Hennessey: level, people have to break holes in, in your
[00:42:07] Jason Hennessey: systems. right?
[00:42:08] Jason Hennessey: And so. [00:42:10] Sometimes when somebody breaks a hole in your system, like you don't fire them, like you should be recognizing them, right? You know, like, seriously, right? A lot of times it's like, Oh my God, I can't believe you [00:42:20] broke the website.
[00:42:20] Jason Hennessey: We lost a client as a result of that. You're fired, right? Not only did that kill culture, right?
[00:42:26] Jason Hennessey: But they just
[00:42:27] Jason Hennessey: kind of like brought something to the surface that should have [00:42:30] been dealt with like months ago. Like, look at that loss of client as a blessing because if you fix that, All of the other clients will benefit
[00:42:38] Jason Hennessey: from that because
[00:42:39] Jason Hennessey: of that, you [00:42:40] know,
[00:42:40] Jason Hennessey: lesson that
[00:42:40] Jason Hennessey: was made there, right? So we try to, we try to live in a, a, a no blame environment, um, where people make mistakes. And it's not so much that we [00:42:50] celebrate the mistakes, but we are grateful, right? You know, because it, it's, if we, if we're having trouble figuring this out, that's just one
[00:42:59] Jason Hennessey: barrier for
[00:42:59] Jason Hennessey: our [00:43:00] competitors, right?
[00:43:00] Jason Hennessey: You know,
[00:43:01] Jason Hennessey: they're gonna get to this point and they're gonna have to figure it out too,
[00:43:04] Corey Quinn: Absolutely. I love that attitude and uh, you know, it makes me think about you know, it's only a failure if you don't learn from [00:43:10] it,
[00:43:10] Jason Hennessey: Mm hmm.
[00:43:11] Corey Quinn: One
[00:43:11] Corey Quinn: thing I'm
[00:43:12] Corey Quinn: getting from everything, that we've covered so far, is, uh, That you you seem to be very long-term focused, [00:43:20] right?
[00:43:20] Corey Quinn: You have you're relationship driven. You wanna do
[00:43:22] Corey Quinn: the right things,
[00:43:23] Corey Quinn: and, losing a client over a website is is an opportunity for for lessons and for growth So I think that is [00:43:30] that's truly genuine who you are 'cause you're applying it everywhere in your business in your life.
[00:43:33] Corey Quinn: Jason
[00:43:34] Jason Hennessey: Yeah.
[00:43:35] Corey Quinn: I have a couple of questions here for you as we as we wrap up
[00:43:38] Jason Hennessey: Sure.
[00:43:38] Corey Quinn: So [00:43:40] Given these two wonderful experiences through these two agency businesses, um, and, and the success of your current agency, um, thinking about [00:43:50] maybe the agency founder who is struggling with scaling, struggling to get to that next level, what would be maybe some parting high level advice as [00:44:00] far as, you know, helping them to get to that next level would be some things that they should keep in mind.
[00:44:05] Jason Hennessey: Yeah, I would say don't beat yourself up. Um, you know, every [00:44:10] agency owner is probably, uh, was in the same position as you at one, right? Um, you know, different variables, probably, but probably same [00:44:20] problems. Um, I would surround yourself with those people, right? I might look at maybe creating your own mastermind, um, or joining a [00:44:30] mastermind, right?
[00:44:30] Jason Hennessey: Because, um, you know, now you could actually vent to somebody and then you'll have four other people that are like, Oh, dude,
[00:44:37] Jason Hennessey: I was there too, four
[00:44:37] Jason Hennessey: years ago. Like, you're fine. Listen. [00:44:40] This is what you do. Here's some advice. Here's some
[00:44:42] Jason Hennessey: of the
[00:44:42] Jason Hennessey: lessons I learned. Even listening
[00:44:43] Jason Hennessey: to, like, podcasts, like Corey's podcast, you know?
[00:44:45] Jason Hennessey: like
[00:44:46] Jason Hennessey: hopefully if you continue to listen, you know, he's interviewing other guests
[00:44:49] Jason Hennessey: and.[00:44:50]
[00:44:50] Jason Hennessey: I'd imagine that some of my pain points were probably some similar pain points for the other guests that you had on the show, right? Um, so, you know, uh, immerse yourself in, in the education, [00:45:00] don't give up, uh, be grateful for your mistakes and just push forward.
[00:45:04] Corey Quinn: That's beautiful. Mm hmm. One last question. What's your motivation?
[00:45:09] Jason Hennessey: [00:45:10] What's my motivation? You know, uh, I look at it as a legacy,
[00:45:13] Jason Hennessey: you know, I'm trying
[00:45:14] Jason Hennessey: to build a legacy, um, uh, you know, I, I hope that, um, Mm hmm. [00:45:20] kids, uh, you know, will appreciate everything that I, I, I built for them. You know, I'm trying to create a life, uh, for my kids that I
[00:45:29] Jason Hennessey: didn't
[00:45:29] Jason Hennessey: [00:45:30] have. Um, which is scary because like in some cases you can enable them as well.
[00:45:35] Jason Hennessey: So that's
[00:45:36] Jason Hennessey: a whole
[00:45:36] Jason Hennessey: nother conversation. Um, but that's really it, you know, [00:45:40] I'm trying
[00:45:40] Jason Hennessey: to, I'm
[00:45:40] Jason Hennessey: trying to. Hopefully, you know, if and when, God forbid, I pass away at some point, you know, there's a lot of people that have a lot of good things to say [00:45:50] about me. And so that's, that's my legacy.
[00:45:52] Corey Quinn: beautiful.
[00:45:53] Jason Hennessey: Mm hmm.
[00:45:54] Corey Quinn: Where can people reach out to you if they maybe have a follow up question or want to get connected with you?
[00:45:58] Jason Hennessey: Yeah, I appreciate that. [00:46:00] So I'm very active on LinkedIn. So I post videos on LinkedIn, I've got a lot of content on, on Instagram, on YouTube. [00:46:10] Or just Jason at Hennessy. com. It's very easy to get me, um, my first name
[00:46:15] Jason Hennessey: at mylastname. com with an
[00:46:17] Jason Hennessey: E Y and, uh, and any of those [00:46:20] ways you can contact me.
[00:46:21] Corey Quinn: Awesome.
[00:46:22] Corey Quinn: Well, thank
[00:46:22] Corey Quinn: you so much for coming on
[00:46:23] Jason Hennessey: Thank you. I
[00:46:24] Jason Hennessey: appreciate it.
[00:46:25] [00:46:30] [00:46:40]
