DeepSpecialization_Peter Kang_EP 74_Audio_Edited_V1
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[00:00:00] Corey Quinn: Welcome to the Deep Specialization Podcast, the show where we blend focus, strategy, and client intimacy in order to scale and simplify our businesses and our lives. I'm your host, Corey Quinn. Let's jump into the show. Today, I'm joined by the chairman of Barrel Holdings, Peter Kang. Well, welcome Peter.
[00:00:18] Peter Kang: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Corey.
[00:00:21] Corey Quinn: Super excited for our conversation. I have been following your content for a long time. You are a veteran in the agency space. And have been through a lot over the years and really interested to hear your perspectives on specializing, growing an agency, building a holding company, all of these things are going to be, uh, I think a real treat for our audience, but to kick things off, could you just, would you mind introducing yourself, sharing a little bit about yourself and barrel holdings?
[00:00:50] Peter Kang: Yeah, sure. Hi, I'm Peter. I, uh, yeah, I've been in this, uh, digital agency space, uh, for quite some time. Yeah, I began an agency business back in 2006 with my co founder Sewook. Uh, that business was called Barrel and Yeah, we began, uh, making websites from the get go for small businesses, evolved into making websites for, you know, different types of companies, corporations, and, you know, eventually, uh, we became, you know, more focused in the type of work we did and, uh, became a, uh, Shopify plus agency.
[00:01:19] Peter Kang: And so, you know, barrel, uh, has become a Shopify e commerce, uh, web agency that. Has been going on for, uh, 18 years now. And, you know, along the way, you know, we had some moments where we, we were able to kind of spin out a few other businesses, agency businesses. And so now we have a portfolio of agency businesses, you know, some of that focus on another platform called Webflow.
[00:01:44] Peter Kang: Some that do kind of very specific work on the support and maintenance side. And another one that's a more focused on the brand design side. So as a, as a, this kind of a portfolio of businesses is what we call barrel holdings. And so that's kind of what we oversee today.
[00:01:58] Corey Quinn: Beautiful. And so I definitely want to dive into the holding aspect.
[00:02:02] Corey Quinn: Uh, the holding company aspect of your business as well as these other brands. But first I want to, I want to dive into a little bit about barrel. It seems like barrel was the company that you and your co founder started back in the day. And that's still the primary, I'd say the largest out of the portfolio.
[00:02:18] Corey Quinn: Is that fair to say?
[00:02:20] Peter Kang: Yeah, yeah, it definitely is. And yeah, it's, it's, it's the one that, you know, where we cut our teeth. I mean, we started the business very young, you know, I was 23 at the time. And, uh, my Business partner was 21. So, you know, we just were very inexperienced in so many different ways and yeah, like used barrel basically as our, you know, education into business and to becoming, you know, managers and, you know, just everything that's required to, to, you know, kind of survive as a business.
[00:02:48] Corey Quinn: So just for context for, for the listeners, what could you share about the sort of the size or you know, number of employees, clients, revenue, anything about Beryl?
[00:02:57] Peter Kang: Yeah. So we've been headcount wise, you know, probably have like 20, 25, uh, full time folks. We also leverage a pretty, uh, That's contractor network of about, you know, uh, 15, 20 folks as well.
[00:03:09] Peter Kang: And yeah, we, we work with a lot of, uh, clients in the CPG food and Bev space, you know, as well as home goods. So yeah, that's kind of, those are kind of our, you know, vertical sweet spots.
[00:03:21] Corey Quinn: Beautiful. So take us back to when you were 23 and your, your co founder was 21. What was happening in your life that. Led you to do the crazy thing, such as starting a, a web, a web agency.
[00:03:34] Peter Kang: Yeah. You know, I think we, we weren't, you know, as intentional about it, you know, just kind of being at that age, the, the main thing was, Hey, like, what can we do that we, you know, enjoyed and, you know, afford us the opportunity to work together. I, I'm a couple of years older, so, you know, I had graduated from college first, uh, got my job right out of school, an investment bank worked at Lehman brothers, uh, for a year.
[00:03:56] Peter Kang: Even while I was there, just, you know, thought, Hey, like say what can I, you know, we, we definitely want to do something together at the soonest opportunity. And so we, we kept that dream alive, you know, met up on weekends, worked together on different projects and just kept at it. And so, you know, when the time came, you know, one year for me into my finance job, I quit and then decided to officially.
[00:04:19] Peter Kang: And yeah, it's, you know, I think it was just kind of this, um, you know, stubbornness about, Hey, like, we're going to just make our own business. We're going to find a way to work together and build something, you know, that we can be proud of. And I think that, yeah, that's kind of held true, you know, to this day of like, uh, the two of us, you know, Great relationship.
[00:04:39] Peter Kang: Like we're, you know, we're close friends as well as like just really, you know, complimentary business partners. And I think that's been kind of the foundation of everything we've done, you know, for, for, uh, you know, basically two decades. Cause, you know, we met basically, you know, during our, uh, time in college and that partnership has continued.
[00:04:57] Corey Quinn: So Dave Ramsey says the only ship that doesn't sail is a partnership. 21 years in the business with a partner and going strong is very commendable. You mentioned that you have complimentary strengths. Can you share a little bit about how you two operate together and make it work for so long?
[00:05:13] Peter Kang: Yeah. So there's a, like a, picture I took.
[00:05:16] Peter Kang: Um, cause we, you know, when we worked out of an office in Manhattan, we sat side by side. And so, you know, I took a picture of our desks, uh, once and you know, it's a, it's a great window into like how different we are. So, you know, I'm, I think I'm tidier nowadays, I guess, but you know, like I'm the type that, you know, Things accumulate on my desk.
[00:05:34] Peter Kang: And so, you know, I think if you give it a few weeks, you'll see piles of papers, you'll see maybe some, you know, wrappers, you know, you'll see some dirty bugs, it just, it just accumulates. And, you know, at a certain point, like you got to really kind of wade your way around it and then say, well, Always pristine.
[00:05:51] Peter Kang: It's not only, you know, minimal, just like laptop and maybe a pen and a notebook, but it's spotless as well. He's always cleaning. Like, I remember also, like you look at our Mac book screens, mine's smudged up. And you know, it's pretty dirty. His is like, he, he cleans, he's the type that will like, you know, basically Windex his screen every day and, and, and make sure the keyboards are clean.
[00:06:12] Peter Kang: And I remember he'd be so disgusted looking at my laptop, but anyway, that's the window into it. Cause like, so I, you know, I And even, you know, in the type of work that we did early on, I was the one that lead more, you know, led the design, creative UX, and then the client facing side of things. And then Seawook would always, uh, kind of, you know, lead with like the technical side of things, uh, development work, as well as kind of the operation, like the business, uh, like finance ops, HR side of things on the business side.
[00:06:38] Peter Kang: And so over time we just kind of found our strengths that way. And also just in the ways we interact. I mean, I think I'd like to say, yeah, way more talkative than say, uh, he's definitely, you know, a great listener, just, you know, very reserved and, you know, uh, he's very thoughtful in his, uh, in the way he talks.
[00:06:54] Peter Kang: Uh, you know, sometimes I'm just like a slip ball and just kind of, you know, just talk as I'm thinking through things. And so, you know, those, those kinds of qualities also, it's very, we're very different in, in those ways. They're very, um, I guess kind of, you know, in many ways opposites. And so, yeah, combined together, there's a balancing effect to how you operate.
[00:07:13] Corey Quinn: That's, that's awesome. So you started, you started when you were 23 years old. Uh, your partner like, like, like was, you said 21. Yeah. What's, what's his name again? Sorry. Yeah. So you started off doing websites for just a lot of different businesses. And then how did that evolve into becoming a Shopify plus shop?
[00:07:37] Corey Quinn: Like what, what were the steps? What was happening in the business that caused you to specialize in this platform? Um,
[00:07:42] Peter Kang: Yeah, part of it was just kind of the, the momentum of Shopify at the time and, uh, just. We had been early adopters, had done some early work in Shopify, you know, as early as I think like 2011 or so.
[00:07:54] Peter Kang: And maybe even, yeah, maybe a little bit earlier. Cause like, so, you know, when, when Shopify was like first on the scene and it was just over time, we saw a growing just organic opportunities just cause like, you know, we had by being early adopters, we had kind of put our name out there as like, you know, an agency that did.
[00:08:12] Peter Kang: Shopify work. So as you know, new, uh, merchants came onto Shopify and need to help on the web, you know, we'd either get referrals from, you know, the partnership program that Shopify ran or just from other merchants talking to each other. So that, that kind of had a momentum of its own. And so, you know, after at a certain point, we're like, wow, like, you know, Shopify, Is, is not an insignificant part of our kind of mix, our portfolio.
[00:08:36] Peter Kang: And in many ways, you know, we saw the future and we were like, well, I think e commerce is this kind of, you know, really secular trend that, you know, we can ride and, you know, just build something that with some really great tailwinds. And so that's where, you know, we decided to kind of go all in on Shopify and, you know, just having the repetition and, you know, just seeing all the different, you know, trends.
[00:08:57] Peter Kang: Use cases, edge cases, and you know, situations with our clients made us more confident in being able to do the Shopify work over and over again, and ever increasing levels of complexity. So those were all things that drove us to be like, okay, this, this is a good strategic way to position ourselves. And, you know, also, you know, just have deeper expertise in this particular area.
[00:09:18] Corey Quinn: Yeah. And, and I imagine over the years, it sounds like you probably were earlier adopter in, in this platform and this ecosystem, as you said, your sort of tailwinds, the, the, the The, the, the tide was rising and you're, you're sort of had, had enough evidence that made sense to, to position in this area. What is it?
[00:09:38] Corey Quinn: How has that changed today? Is it, is it, um, I imagine it's more competitive. There's a lot of, I imagine there's a lot of agencies out there who are also Shopify plus, the agencies were looking to win the same clients that you guys are looking to win. How do you manage that or approach that from a differentiation perspective?
[00:09:54] Peter Kang: Yeah, no. And I think, um, you know, I If, if, for you being completely honest with like how we've done, like, I think we, we, we probably went all in a little bit too late in the, in the sense of like, you know, I think we just, you know, being in business for that long, like there was, you know, we, we have, we had a lot of legacy clients on different platforms, namely like WordPress.
[00:10:16] Peter Kang: We did a lot of work. We were also doing just UX, UI work for different types of businesses. And so, you know, like, I think that kind of slowed us down and like really. Signaling also to Shopify that like, Hey, we're pure play Shopify, you know, agency and like, you know, we're, you know, we should be in line to kind of really get, you know, your most, um, you know, exciting kind of opportunities with merchants and brands coming onto the platform.
[00:10:38] Peter Kang: I think in that regard, we, we did, yeah, there, there were some really great kind of Shopify first agencies that kind of. took took those opportunities and it really kind of benefited from that positioning. So I'd say like, yeah, like we're, you know, we're still very much committed to the Shopify side of things, but then there's definitely been, yeah, like some missed opportunities because we weren't, you know, fully committed.
[00:11:01] Peter Kang: And we can talk about this more later, but this is actually like the very learnings that we took. In kind of launching our Webflow specific, uh, agency, uh, BX studio. And I think we're applying all the lessons learned to that right now. And then, and kind of seeing the benefits of kind of being, you know, a hundred percent committed early on.
[00:11:22] Corey Quinn: Got it. So what were some of the things that you missed out on? It sounds like Shopify actually had an opinion in this, in some respects, they had some level of control and that they saw that. They're going to, they're going to help promote those agencies that are fully committed to their platform. Is that kind of what it was?
[00:11:37] Corey Quinn: Or was it something else?
[00:11:38] Peter Kang: I mean, it's just about relationship building. And I think it's like, you know, at the end, like we, we were like, all right, cool. Like we were getting good organic Shopify leads and the partner program is sending us some leads. But like, it's, you know, we weren't, we were a bit complacent about it just cause we were like, Oh, we were early.
[00:11:53] Peter Kang: So like, you know, you just expect the same thing to continue, but like as new entrants come and you know, these folks were smart, they really went. You know, the extra mile to be like, all right, like let's co market with Shopify. Let's do, you know, extra outreach. Let's, let's get, let's really put a program around promoting Shopify and kind of getting in front of potential merchants and really building that practice.
[00:12:16] Peter Kang: And I think, you know, just, just by virtue of being like, Oh yeah, they've always fed us, you know, some good opportunities that will continue. Just cause we, we, we had, we thought we had the pedigree that was, yeah, that was kind of the mistake was like, Hey, we sh we should have been more deliberate. We should have been like, okay, if this is where things are going, how do we make sure we, you know, continue to contribute to, let's say the, the thought leadership aspect of it, how do we continue to show, you know, Shopify, Hey, like we can work together to win, you know, XYZ merchant that's on, you know, Magento or, you know, Salesforce commerce cloud and try to bring them over.
[00:12:48] Peter Kang: So I think those are all the opportunities that, Like, in hindsight, it's like, oh crap. Like, we should have done these things. But, um, yeah. But like, you know, at the time we were like, huh, like, you know, we were still busy at the time and growing. So like, you know, it's really hard.
[00:13:01] Corey Quinn: Good, you know, it was
[00:13:03] Peter Kang: easy and easy.
[00:13:04] Peter Kang: But I think the, the ones that like really had that intention and like that strategy kind of honed in, were, were ones that benefited, uh, quite a bit. So, yeah, I'd say like, there were definitely lessons and takeaways from that.
[00:13:17] Corey Quinn: And so you mentioned BX studio, that's your, uh, Webflow agency.
[00:13:21] Peter Kang: Exactly. And like that, that came about because like, you know, we were, we, we just happened to have, um, some folks on our team that were early adopters of Webflow.
[00:13:30] Peter Kang: And like, uh, and you know, this is when like Webflow was still pretty new to the scene and, and just trying to get. A foothold on things. And so they saw that we were building some stuff on Webflow and then they started sending some leads our way. And, you know, as we saw that kind of play out or like, like, you know, this is okay, like maybe this is an opportunity to do things a little bit differently.
[00:13:49] Peter Kang: And it was almost like kind of getting a second chance, chance to kind of play, run this playbook a different way.
[00:13:56] Corey Quinn: So I think it's interesting is that it sounds like, and correct me if I didn't get this right, but. Yeah, you, you have Beryl Holdings, you started with Beryl, Holdings, which is a, and this is my, my words, but effectively a holding company of a various brand, agency brands that have different areas of specialization.
[00:14:11] Corey Quinn: Is that correct?
[00:14:12] Peter Kang: Yep, pretty much a portfolio of agencies, yep.
[00:14:14] Corey Quinn: Yeah, portfolio, thank you, a portfolio of agencies. And these are all wholly owned, like homegrown agency brands. Like there's not businesses you've acquired or did you acquire any? Yeah, these,
[00:14:23] Peter Kang: these have all been home homegrown. I mean, we, we do have aspirations to, you know, eventually either acquire or even kind of merge in agencies to existing agencies.
[00:14:32] Peter Kang: So those are kind of things on the roadmap, but yeah, these are all homegrown.
[00:14:36] Corey Quinn: What was the decision process as you and your co founder were thinking about these opportunities, why not just expand the scope of the barrel brand and not start a separate brand? Like what, what was the decision process and why did you ultimately choose to create a separate brand for this?
[00:14:54] Corey Quinn: Let's say the BX studio, which is Webflow.
[00:14:57] Peter Kang: Yeah. Okay. So just to rewind it back, like, uh, I think. You know, we, we, yeah, I mean, I wish we were as intentional and kind of had this master plan to start with, but you know, that was not the case. So the, kind of the, the origins of barrel holdings came first from just this need that we had of like, so like, as a barrel had been around a long time, we had accumulated a lot of different types of clients and.
[00:15:21] Peter Kang: Many of them didn't even fit kind of the, that e commerce Shopify positioning that we were, you know, leaning towards, especially like we had clients from, you know, when we first started the business that, you know, whether there were nonprofits, uh, you know, maybe financial services, like just different verticals and just kind of, you know, different on different tech stacks that just didn't fit.
[00:15:40] Peter Kang: You know, where we were going with the agency, you know, initially we were like, Oh, maybe we just have to kind of sunset these clients and kind of help them find new homes, but we like do a calculation, just kind of added them all up together. And we're like, wait, this is not an insignificant number. Yeah, there's, there's some, there's, there's revs there.
[00:15:58] Peter Kang: And then like, these are also profitable accounts. Cause that, you know, they were mainly, you know, support services that had, you know, really good margins. So, you know, we were, we, we kind of did some math and like, you know, uh, we started having some convos, uh, and, you know, we had an employee that like had been running a lot of these accounts and had very great familiarity with these types of clients.
[00:16:17] Peter Kang: And so, you know, he volunteered to, you know, run the business if we were to spin it out. And so, you know, we created a joint venture with him and, you know, that's where Vaulted Oak was born. And, you know, there was a whole process to kind of split that business off from Barrel Yeah, and it was great. Like there's a lot of benefits from it too.
[00:16:32] Peter Kang: Cause like one of the challenges was like, if you have this long tail of clients, maybe, you know, 20 plus clients and, you know, and then at the same time you're trying to service our, you know, kind of the core clients are doing Shopify work, but then you, so you have the team where you're trying Like staff them, you know, in, in their kind of, you know, pockets of time with these like support and maintenance projects.
[00:16:54] Peter Kang: It just drove everyone kind of nuts. It was like a lot of, uh, resourcing pain. And so I think it simplified the business by kind of, you know, removing those kinds of accounts, uh, and, and moving him out of peril. Uh, so with that experience, so we're like, okay, cool. Like, let's see how Vault a Dope plays out.
[00:17:12] Peter Kang: And it was great. Like right off the bat, like. Just different cost structure, different expectations for clients. And just like, you know, there, there was like a really great focus. Cause you know, and we started off with a, a very simplified pricing structure that did not, has not changed to this day where it was like, look, our base plan is like this 25 hours a quarter package that you buy, you know?
[00:17:31] Peter Kang: So it's like, it's a very small plan, but like. That's kind of the basis of it. And then you can buy additional packages of hours or upgrade to different quarterly plans, but like, that was it, it was super simple and like made it such an easy way to buy for clients. And so once we saw that, how that focus could like play out in terms of both execution and just kind of easy to bring on new clients, uh, we decided, Hey, there's something here, like maybe, you know, whenever there's another kind of.
[00:17:57] Peter Kang: You know, opportunity that doesn't align with what we're trying to do at barrel and Shopify. You know, maybe there, there's an opportunity to kind of spin that out as a separate business. So that became really the Genesis. And that's what kind of gave us the confidence to approach BX studio. Once we learn, Hey, like with Webflow, we don't want to dilute Shopify work with Webflow projects.
[00:18:20] Peter Kang: So how about we. You know, find a way to spin this out as a business as well. And then, you know, I was able to recruit a CEO for this role. And, you know, that's kind of seeded him with a few projects of like leads coming from through barrel. And then we're off to the races and, you know, it's been, it's been a great growth story since then.
[00:18:39] Corey Quinn: Well, I think, you know, with, with, with the, the, the brilliance of that is that I think what many founders or CEOs might try to do is, you know, They may over identify potentially with their, their version of barrel. Like it's their, it's their first company. It's the one that's the most successful. And so let's just, let's just pack in a lot of different type of clients, a lot of different products.
[00:19:02] Corey Quinn: Cause I, I'm going to be Amazon one day. Right. And I think what you, you kind of walk through what I got from that, at least was that it was a different cost structure, a different product, different pricing structure, different service levels that were. Different enough that it was ultimately disruptive and incongruent with the barrel sort of rhythm that you have with your clients, the product and so on and so forth.
[00:19:27] Corey Quinn: So that at that point made sense to go, okay, we're going to do something different. We're going to pull it out and make it its own thing. You had an employee who was willing to raise their hand, which made it, I'm sure a lot easier than, you know, giving you a second job to have to try and manage. And so I think that there's, there's a lot of wisdom in that and how you've done that.
[00:19:46] Corey Quinn: And it sounds like it's been a positive move because. Obviously you have BX studio and you've got, so what else is under the, under the umbrella for now?
[00:19:55] Peter Kang: Yeah. So we have, um, bolster, which is our, you know, so it's our brand design agency and you know, we saw a real need to, you know, kind of have this like design focused, uh, offering, especially like on the B2B side.
[00:20:09] Peter Kang: Cause, uh, you know, with, uh, BX, you know, there are a lot of opportunities where, you know, like some of these clients. They come with a website request, but what they really needed initially was like a brand design, you know, help. And then, but a lot, but then when you, when you, when you do kind of like the branding piece, there's other opportunities, right?
[00:20:25] Peter Kang: You, you kind of, there's the sales and marketing materials that you have to create, uh, that may be tracial collateral. So there's a lot of different things you can do, maybe even add creative, whatever. So we thought, Oh, like, it'd be interesting just to have a company that can service that. And then, you know, for any of the web needs, when, when that needs to happen, can go to BX.
[00:20:43] Peter Kang: We'll see. I mean, like, you know, bolster is still kind of a year plus in, we, we've done some like interesting things with that business trying to really rethink the way like people buy branding services. I'd say, you know, it's, it's not, it's not been all smooth sailing. So we'll, like, we're still continuing to experiment, but you know, one thing that we're excited about is like this, you know, this idea of like, you know, you, for, for certain types of clients, they don't need to spend too much time on branding, they can get.
[00:21:12] Peter Kang: Something that's very usable and like effective, you know, in a matter of weeks, not months. And then this velocity of getting a branding done is something that we're really excited about.
[00:21:24] Corey Quinn: Hey, it's Corey. I hope you're enjoying this episode. And I want to let you know that I have a new bestselling book that has just come out that gives you my proven system to escape founder led sales.
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[00:21:55] Corey Quinn: I think it's needed because in my experience, brands need to, they need the sunlight of day and they need to, they actually breathe a little bit in the world for you to actually know what's working and what's not versus. You know, try to, try to manage it all inside of a, of a boardroom or whatnot. I'm curious what your perspective is.
[00:22:15] Corey Quinn: I mean, you, you built, you built a barrel based on Shopify and you're building up BX studio based on Webflow. What are the sort of the benefits and then also the challenges of building an agency business on a platform?
[00:22:29] Peter Kang: Yeah. I mean, I'd say benefits, uh, you know, to start is, yeah, there's, you know, as you kind of do more work in that.
[00:22:38] Peter Kang: On that platform, you can, you know, develop your expertise and then you can also develop, you know, some reusable components and other, you know, assets that you can help to speed up delivery, improve margins. You know, your team just gets more used to kind of doing it and then you can streamline processes.
[00:22:54] Peter Kang: So there's a, there's a degree of like efficiency gain from doing this. And then, you know, just, I think from a business development, like opportunities, lead generation aspect, like, you know, there there's, you can really match well with, you know, there's, there's clearly, you know, somebody who's looking for, Hey.
[00:23:11] Peter Kang: I have a Shopify site. I need work done by a Shopify, a firm that specializes in this. It's, it's such a, you know, it's a good way to differentiate and make that match. Yeah. So I say that's on the benefit side, but you know, I say on the, um, you know, some of the challenges with it is, uh, yeah. I mean, like depending on the space, it can, it can get very competitive, very fast.
[00:23:31] Peter Kang: Like if everyone sees like, Hey, this is, you know, this is growing and this is, you know, there's, there's a lot of, you know, kind of opportunities there. Like you're going to get folks from all angles. Like whether. You know, it's a big systems integrator coming into this space and kind of doing the taking the enterprise clients, or, you know, you're going to have freelancers who are very capable and can do the work that, you know, a boutique agency can.
[00:23:52] Peter Kang: So like, you're going to, there's going to be competition at all levels. Uh, and then not to mention like, you know, companies like the exact same size as us, they're, you know, going after the exact same clients. And so You know, you can quickly, it could quickly get commoditized. And so like you, you, I would say like, we, we would like, sometimes the platform itself is not enough.
[00:24:11] Peter Kang: There's gotta be another level of. Kind of specialization or, you know, kind of, yeah, focus that needs to be layered on top of that.
[00:24:19] Corey Quinn: Yeah. So the, the analogy I'm thinking about as you're speaking about that is I know a couple of agencies that have done something similar, but on the HubSpot platform. And back in the day HubSpot used to be the big differentiator for them.
[00:24:33] Corey Quinn: And then eventually everyone became a HubSpot certified, you know, gold, platinum, whatever partner. And then they, that, they lost that, that advantage from a positioning perspective. And so as a result of that, some of these folks would specialize further this time into a vertical market. So what I'm thinking about is Kula partners and they specialize now in maintaining, doing their HubSpot premier partner for manufacturing companies.
[00:24:59] Corey Quinn: Right. So they, they, they, they focus on the platform and now the vertical. Has a way to differentiate. Have you guys thought much about adding more of a specific vertical focus? Uh, or does that not really make sense for your business?
[00:25:14] Peter Kang: No, no, we do. I mean, we've, and we've done this, uh, more and more. So I'd say like with barrel, like it's been, you know, Shopify.
[00:25:22] Peter Kang: E comm like with a focus on like CPG, you know, so mainly like food and Bev, you know, just, you know, We've done tons of work with like different, like snack brands, alcoholic and non alcoholic beverages, as well as like, you know, skincare beauty brands as well. So like, I think just, just kind of, you know, consumables are a big part of it.
[00:25:45] Peter Kang: Like, uh, you know, subscriptions, repeat purchases. Those are, those are also, you know, major aspects of what we do because it's CPG. So yeah, that's been a, an important focus for us. And yeah, like. Being more intentional about going deeper into that has been, you know, really good for how we, yeah, even within Shopify, like the types of expertise we need to cater to those types of clients.
[00:26:09] Peter Kang: And, and also like the types of events that we attend or the types of folks that will, you know, try to make relationships with those, those have all evolved and kind of, you know, been honed in because of the, the extra of the vertical specialization.
[00:26:22] Corey Quinn: Yeah, right. That's awesome. So you mentioned before we hit record that, that you are going to be focusing more and more on the holding company versus the day to day operations of, of barrel.
[00:26:34] Corey Quinn: And so tell us a little bit about your decision there and what, what drove that decision and what you're looking forward to with this change.
[00:26:42] Peter Kang: Yeah. So, you know, one thing just going through this experience of building the holding company and like, you know, launching these. Different agency businesses with their own, um, you know, CEOs, you know, I, I, I realized like, you know, can, can this be possible for barrel as well?
[00:27:00] Peter Kang: Because, you know, I had been in the day to day, uh, barrel, you know, for, you know, basically the last 18 years. And, um, you know, just one thing that I realized was, Hey, maybe you. I can be most effective kind of doing what I'm doing for the other agencies, which is, you know, just being a sounding board, you know, kind of helping to helping to develop strategy, helping to kind of, you know, see the big picture and then, you know, thinking about some special projects to support these companies and also the, the, Cross pollination of knowledge, share across all these companies.
[00:27:31] Peter Kang: And so with that in mind, you know, just, it was just a natural conversation because, you know, we have a couple of their, uh, you know, partners within the business at barrel. So, you know, we have, uh, Lucas, uh, our chief experience officer, who's, you know, who's, who's taken over as a CEO and he's been in the business for, you know, he started as a designer and he's been in the business for like 11 plus years.
[00:27:54] Peter Kang: And so, you know, like over the years he just proved himself to be such a, you know, Like learner and like, you know, just somebody who's taking on additional responsibilities and just kind of risen to occasion to just expand his capabilities. And so, you know, I, I thought like, okay, can hand over the keys and like, no, that he's going to do an amazing job.
[00:28:13] Peter Kang: And then, you know, supporting him is also Wes, who's been our CTO for a long time. And, you know, he, he's been in the business for over 13 years. And so the two of them with them, like leading the charge, like we thought, okay, You know, see what can I step away from the day to day of barrel and then kind of really focus on the only company as like this kind of support structure for all the agencies and then, you know, kind of simplify the business as well.
[00:28:36] Peter Kang: Cause I think with barrel us to being in it, like. You know, just things just accumulate a lot of just different types of baggage and in certain ways, like a ways of doing things. And we were like, okay, let's be more objective about this, take ourselves out of it, look at it as, you know, all the other businesses.
[00:28:53] Peter Kang: And then, you know, in many ways that'll set up for even greater success because we're not so attached and kind of, you know, weird ways that, you know, just having, you know, Obviously founded it and kind of having lived with it for so long, like, you know, you might, you might get that emotional attachment that we did.
[00:29:08] Corey Quinn: Of course. So for those listeners who want to be in your, would like to eventually be in your shoes. And what I mean by this is that they build a successful business that operates independently of them, that they can come in and, you know, Be a coach and a guide to the executive team. And that's in place besides having, cause it sounds like one of the critical elements there is having good people to have proven themselves over the years who are eager and wanting to step up.
[00:29:35] Corey Quinn: But what else must be true for the agency or for the founder and the business they've built for them to be able to make this kind of transition.
[00:29:43] Peter Kang: Yeah, I mean, I think the most important piece is probably making sure like the incentives are aligned with those who are going to be leading the business.
[00:29:50] Peter Kang: Because, you know, if you want to ensure that they're in it for the long term, it has to be worthwhile for them. And so I think you err on the side of like, yeah, just be, be willing to give up, you know, a good chunk of upside for them to, you know, definitely take advantage of that as they grow the business and, you know, help.
[00:30:09] Peter Kang: To, to, you know, drive, continue success. And so I think having those discussions being deliberate and intentional about how you structure, you know, conversation and incentives is very important. And then, you know, the other part is just, you know, continue to have oversight of the business. It's because just cause you know, we're not in the day to day doesn't mean we're, you know, not still like kind of invested and wanting to see the business succeed.
[00:30:32] Peter Kang: So like having the systems in place, I mean, we, we spent years kind of Honing in and kind of making sure we were comfortable with, you know, the, the financial reporting, uh, the, you know, uh, making sure we have visibility into like the cashflow side of things and all the, all the things that made us comfortable about, you know, being able to be out of the day to day because, you know, we knew, you know, there's enough controls and reporting to help us understand what state these businesses were in and how they would kind of perform into the future.
[00:31:00] Corey Quinn: Sure. And when, and if you need to step back in for whatever reason, like that signal would be clear.
[00:31:06] Peter Kang: What
[00:31:09] Corey Quinn: are you excited about for the future of your, your holding company?
[00:31:13] Peter Kang: Yeah. So, you know, one aspect I didn't mention is, so, you know, I think, uh, like I've showed this in the past, but we have this kind of.
[00:31:21] Peter Kang: Website that, you know, it built years ago, it's called agency docs. And, uh, you know, it's where, you know, it started because like, this was maybe almost eight years ago now. So like on a whim, I was, um, you know, I was kind of, I had this thought of like, okay, I would love, I would pay money to see another agency's like deliverables, like their templates, their documents, you know, kind of where their, where their proposals look like, et cetera.
[00:31:45] Peter Kang: And then whenever I would ask people, they'd be kind of, You know, if he about it, they'd be like, I don't know, like, you know, you have anything specific you want to see, but like, no one would like kind of open up their open up their drop box or whatever to me, which is understandable, but I was like, Hey, like, I actually don't mind.
[00:31:59] Peter Kang: You know, I'm actually like, I don't think I have much to hide. Let me just, but I thought it would be fun. Like, let me just, uh, take, you know, the docs that we've kind of made use of at barrel, you know? And, you know, I just made some stuff generic, obviously to get anything kind of, you know, confidential or like private, but like, you know, I was like, this is useful.
[00:32:17] Peter Kang: Like if I saw this, I would, I would find value. So I packaged them all up, did this in like a, you know, basically half a day, honestly, like, so like, I just put it up on a Shopify site and then it's been like, I put it up there, didn't do much marketing, but like, it's, it was, it's, you know, year after year, just, it's still kind of sells, you know, a few thousand bucks worth of like PDFs basically.
[00:32:38] Peter Kang: And so I told myself, I was like, Hey, like if I ever kind of like, you know, Take a step back from the day to day barrel. Like, you know, I want to kind of revisit this because I think, you know, this many years later, I have a completely different perspective on, you know, like what kind of documents and how they should be organized and how they should be, you know, kind of consumed.
[00:32:59] Peter Kang: So I think I'm excited about that. Cause we have, you know, so one thing I've been working on is kind of this. Barrel holdings, kind of business system toolkit, you know, that like we've been think using to kind of visualize like, Oh. You know, across, you know, different areas of the business, like these are kind of some of the best practices or areas that you need to just have, you know, certain aspects of, uh, you know, certain things in place, whether systems or policies or anything, or even templates, just having things in place.
[00:33:28] Peter Kang: And so I thought, Hey, if I'm doing this for our agencies, I think there's going to be value for folks, you know, Who might want to see this first of all, and then kind of be, you know, uh, make use of some of the documents or templates or, or SOPs that come out of it. So that's something that we've been working on and something that we're excited to, you know, bring to market.
[00:33:47] Peter Kang: I think, you know, probably sometime, you know, in, uh, 2024, like, well, you know, towards probably the end of the year, we'll have a lot more to share there, but yeah, pretty excited.
[00:33:56] Corey Quinn: I'm excited about that. That kind of brings us to the next sort of topic I wanted to touch on briefly, which is you publish a weekly email called consumed and created.
[00:34:07] Corey Quinn: And I'm a, I'm a fan of that. I love reading it. And, uh, in fact, a couple months ago, you included an off, uh, an article from a CEO of a business that it's basically an SLP business that I found extremely insightful. That one reinforced my excitement about getting your emails. And I saw it recently on, I think on LinkedIn or elsewhere that you shared that.
[00:34:29] Corey Quinn: That the newsletter, this, this weekly newsletter has been getting a lot of great, uh, traction. People are subscribing. So could you share with the audience a little bit about what that weekly email is, the inspiration behind it, as well as some of the other personal brand related stuff that you do?
[00:34:45] Peter Kang: Yeah.
[00:34:45] Peter Kang: So, I mean, this newsletter probably started, you know, maybe six, seven years ago. It was really a, at first kind of this desire to counterbalance like the consumption with like. You know, just making something because I just, you know, I've been in a rut of like, I'm like, I'm reading all this stuff, you know, whether it's books, social media, whatever.
[00:35:05] Peter Kang: But like, There's nothing coming out, you know, there's like, I'm, I'm at this deficit, this kind of deficit of consumption, right? I was like, all right, this is like my way to, you know, just kind of deliberately kind of balance it. And, you know, part of it was, you know, if I'm consuming stuff, even having some commentary about the things I read makes that consumption a lot richer.
[00:35:25] Peter Kang: Cause like, I think, yeah. It is an aspect of passive consumption. Like, you know, when you're just working through like, you know, dozens of podcasts every week or like you're just browsing through articles, but you don't like stop to ever like reflect, okay, like, how does this apply and write about it? Like, I think those are missed opportunities.
[00:35:40] Peter Kang: So I thought, okay, if I create a newsletter where like, I'm forced to at least take a couple links, at least, you know, a couple pieces of content every week and comment on it, maybe that's of value to me. And like, I've gotten more value out of that content. Um, and at the same time I'm creating something, right?
[00:35:54] Peter Kang: So there's something to that. And then I was, and then I have a section called created where it's, you know, specifically for any kind of piece of content I've created during the week. And, and, you know, it used to be just blog posts, but nowadays it could be LinkedIn stuff. It could be a presentation I made or whatever, just kind of, it's, it's always like, Because I do it weekly now, like, it's always on top of my mind, like, you know, as soon as the newsletter goes out, I'm like, okay, like, what's the next thing that's going to be created for the next newsletter?
[00:36:20] Peter Kang: And like, that puts me in a creator mode, and it's been a good forcing function for me to just be like, okay, like, I'm gonna, you know, put something out into this world, even if it's not perfect, but, you know, it'll just force me to, you know, make time to create stuff. So that's where the kind of genesis of the newsletter was.
[00:36:36] Peter Kang: And, you know, it was sporadic, you know, at first, I just added maybe like 20 of my friends and just kind of, you know, Sent it out willy nilly. And then like, it was, you know, it might be like, I might go a couple of weeks and then like, you know, pause for like three months and then, you know, just kind of, it was like intermittent.
[00:36:51] Peter Kang: What happened was I took a writing course this way back, I think, uh, 2019, um, it's called right of passage. And, you know, it was, it was a great. There's a great course just on like, you know, creating content and having a system for it and just being super disciplined about it. And so like, since that course, I have not missed the weekend.
[00:37:10] Peter Kang: So this is like, you know, going on five years of like every single week I've sent. A newsletter and like, you know, it's, it's been, it's just something I just take pride in as like, all right, like no matter how busy or like crazy, you know, the, the schedule gets, I just, you know, I'll just make time to do it.
[00:37:25] Peter Kang: And uh, you know, there's, there's a whole system around it as well. So that's been good. And honestly, like the, the, I say like first few years it was, you know, it was like, uh, you know, I thought, okay, this is definitely not an audience building thing. Cause like no one's signing up, but you know, it's more because I, just to kind of get that
[00:37:43] Corey Quinn: Yeah, you know,
[00:37:44] Peter Kang: get that kind of habit of creating content, but you know, slowly but surely, I think some folks found value in what I was putting out.
[00:37:51] Peter Kang: And so, you know, I've been able to grow my list some and yeah, it's still, still like a small list relatively, right. But, uh, I think it's something that has gotten some good engagement. I've made, you know, I've actually met a lot of great people along the way through the newsletter. And like, it's, it's been a good way to also keep some of my friends in the loop too, about what I'm up to.
[00:38:09] Corey Quinn: Yeah. I I'd say that you do share, it's, it's, it feels like you're writing to friends. This doesn't feel like a formal kind of like, you know, essay that you would submit in high school or college. It's really, it's really accessible. I can relate to this idea of writing. I. You know, I recently wrote a book and part of that process was finding a way for me to articulate the ideas in my head.
[00:38:33] Corey Quinn: I'm very, very much in my head and finding a way to actually, not only just get it on paper, but in a way that is good to easy and good to consume by others is it almost helps me to find ways to articulate these, these ideas in public. It just helps me in that, in that regard. I, I, I do a daily newsletter for the same reason.
[00:38:54] Corey Quinn: It's like I, I write daily because it helps me to figure out how to actually put these ideas to words. Oh, by the way, there's people reading this too. It's like the, the primary benefit is that I get the opportunity to articulate these ideas. So I can, I can relate to that for sure. And I would say that, you know, you, you are quite transparent.
[00:39:13] Corey Quinn: You talk about your personal goals. You talk about your, the books you read, the, you know, your investments, the changes you're making in the business, the struggles that you, that you face, which I think is a refreshing. Read for for many people in a world that isn't there isn't enough of that. So I appreciate what you're doing that.
[00:39:31] Corey Quinn: Thank you. All right. Well, I would say that, uh, there's many, many more roads we can go down, but I want to wrap it up with just two more quick questions for you. What would you say to your 23 year old self? Looking back now, it's having been through this barrel journey and everything that's gone on with the business and all the growth, all the books you've read, all the coaching you've received and given, what would you say to your younger self who is an ambitious, young business owner who really wants to build a great, viable, successful agency?
[00:40:02] Corey Quinn: What are some things that come to mind?
[00:40:04] Peter Kang: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, two things I would say is like, look, relationships are everything. Just, you know, make sure. You know, you keep that in mind because I don't think I kind of, that really clicked for me, you know, until much later, but like just this idea of like a long term, you know, think long term and, you know, especially around the relationship side of like, you know, just it's about who, you know, it's about how well, you know, that's about how you treat them, all those things.
[00:40:31] Peter Kang: And just kind of, you know, valuing that above anything else. And then You know, beyond that, just like embrace a life of discipline, you know, just, I think, um, uh, you know, it's obviously as a 23 year old, there was this really hard message to kind of internalize, I'm sure, but I think things started, you know, just kind of clicking a lot more for me once I kind of, You know, had some systems in place of like just better, you know, whether it's better diet, better sleeping habits, you know, just kind of better routines around fitness, all those things kind of coming together made everything so much easier and just kind of gave me the energy to do things.
[00:41:06] Peter Kang: And I don't like, I wish, uh, you know, my 23 year old would have known that.
[00:41:11] Corey Quinn: Me too. And yeah, audience, if you, if you want to hear more about Peter, share about that, definitely check out his newsletter, last question for you. As we wrap up, what's your motivation?
[00:41:22] Peter Kang: I think I get a kick out of, uh, just being a facilitator for, you know, the success of others.
[00:41:27] Peter Kang: I think just kind of the, it's like, and it's not like, I don't even need the credit, but it's just kind of knowing that like, Oh, look, I played a small role in like helping somebody, you know, in their journey from getting A to B, like I was able to. Provide an assist. And, you know, it was, it was impactful in a meaningful way.
[00:41:43] Peter Kang: I think that just more than anything just kind of is, is a real motivator. And that's why, like, you know, just thinking about, Hey, like, you know, did I have like the best kind of business outcomes, you know, to, to date so far, or like, you know, just have kind of the whatever financial or, you know, kind of external success.
[00:42:01] Peter Kang: No, but like, you know, the thing I'm super proud of is there are a lot of people that I've kind of, you know, come in contact with that I've been able to You know, just help in one way or another. And I think, you know, those are the things that I'm most proud of.
[00:42:13] Corey Quinn: So I think on your website, I'm on your website right now.
[00:42:16] Corey Quinn: And I think, I don't know which page, but it's really clear. What I admire about you is that you're really clear about your values and your principles. And I think the first one you list on this page I'm, I'm, I'm thinking about is, is the same thing you just said that you are, you're driven to help other people to have, to help facilitate their success.
[00:42:34] Corey Quinn: And so I think you've, you've definitely demonstrated that here and sharing all your wisdom, your story and your, you know, your insights on your journey. So thank you so much, Peter, for joining.
[00:42:45] Peter Kang: All right. Thanks for having me.
[00:42:46] Corey Quinn: That's it for today. I'm Corey Quinn, and I hope you join me again next time on the deep specialization podcast.
[00:42:53] Corey Quinn: If you received value from the show, please go to apple podcasts and leave us a review. Thanks. And we'll see you soon.
