DeepSpecialization_John Jantsch_EP 73_Video_Edited_V1
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[00:00:00] They know how to get clients, they've got a decent business, but they're working harder than ever and really making less than ever.
[00:00:05] You know, this is a model that they can implement pretty quickly and really see some dramatic, dramatic increases
[00:00:12] Welcome to the deep specialization podcast, the show where we blend focus, strategy, and client intimacy in order to scale and simplify our businesses and our lives. I'm your host, Corey Quinn. Let's jump into the show today. I'm joined by John Jantsch. He's a marketing consultant, speaker, wall street [00:00:30] journal, bestselling author of duct tape marketing.
[00:00:32] You've probably read it. He's also the author of the referral engine, the self reliant entrepreneur. And the ultimate marketing engine, quite a prolific author, John, you're also the founder of duct tape marketing consultant network, which trains and licenses independent consultants and agencies to use the duct tape methodology.
[00:00:54] His keynotes and training motivate and engage audiences worldwide at [00:01:00] industry and trade events. Welcome John. Thanks for having me, Corey. So I've been super excited about this because I've been familiar with your work for a long time. I think I was first introduced to you by, I think you were interviewed on Chandler Bolt's podcast.
[00:01:16] He's the, he's the author of a book called Published. And so I've been following you for a while and really, really excited. To have you on the show, I wanted to bring you on because I want to dive deep with you into the world of fractional CMOs. [00:01:30] And I know that you are developing some, some IP there. And I really want to just get your perspective.
[00:01:35] First off, like what has led to this explosion of this, of this So this role of a fractional CMO, what, what is this thing? Yeah, I think it's, I think it's like a lot of things, you know, trends come about because some things collide, you know, we can certainly blame our friend, the pandemic for maybe accelerating the trend a bit, but you have a lot of senior marketing people or people with marketing experience that look at this [00:02:00] model.
[00:02:00] I mean, fractional, everything has become kind of acceptable. So I think a lot of folks are looking at that as, Hey, you know, That's something I could do. I could hang my shingle out and I worked for a couple of clients instead of, you know, going to the office every day. So that's half of it. I think the other half is that I think a lot of businesses, particularly, like I said, during the pandemic kind of got caught without a strategy.
[00:02:20] And I think, you know, business had been great. You know, the markets were great. So everybody was great, but then all of a sudden tough times came around. And that's when you saw people who didn't really have a [00:02:30] strategy that, that helped them. Dominate their market or even get close to their customers, you know, really got burned.
[00:02:36] And so increasingly we're seeing a lot of businesses who maybe thought, Oh, strategy, that's nice. That's fluffy. You know, we're saying, you know what? We need that. So I think those things coming together have really kind of made a nice environment for growth in this industry. So, based on that, what is, what are some of the differences between a traditional sort of in house CMO model versus this fractional role?
[00:02:57] Yeah, well, I mean, the, the, the first [00:03:00] kind of big, giant obvious one is that, uh, it's a part time role in some ways and not, not part time thinking necessarily, but just not there paid on a W 2. You know, sitting in every meeting, you know, at a desk, so it's really tailored, I think, for an organization that feels like they're not ready for that.
[00:03:18] I mean, realistically, if you just think about marketing budgets in the very, very traditional sense, you know, I don't know, 6, 7, 8 percent right of revenue. Well, you've got to be about a 30 million [00:03:30] business really to, to be at a point revenue wise, where it makes sense to bring in a 000 full time salary for that role.
[00:03:38] And so I think for a lot of organizations that are under that, but you know, they want to be that 30 million company feel like, Hey, we've got strategic marketing function in our business. We just don't need somebody full time. Yeah. And so maybe you could expand on that a little bit. Like what is, what does a CMO do that's different than let's say someone who's focused on [00:04:00] copywriting or lead gen?
[00:04:00] Like what is, what is the CMO role really for? Well, the, the, the CMO role is not writing copy, not writing emails, generally speaking, really what I think the core difference, because a lot of folks think in terms of the tactics, some of the things you mentioned. And so a lot of times they'll hire agencies to do tactics.
[00:04:19] But the CMO role is much larger in that it is certainly guiding the messaging. It's guiding the focus of, you know, product to target market [00:04:30] fit. It is somebody that should be very focused on the metrics. A lot of times, you know, agencies are focused on the metric that matters to them, like website leads or something like that, when there's a heck of a lot of metrics that really matter to the organization meeting their, their overall strategic goals.
[00:04:47] And then one role that. I don't think it's talked about enough is the CMO really should be the advocate for the customer inside the organization. So they're, they should be also very focused on the [00:05:00] customer experience, on the service experience, on the success of the customer. And it's, it's. Kind of nice to have that role, have somebody that's kind of the watchdog, if you will, for that role, because a lot of times organizations will do things that are efficient, that, you know, are easier for them that, you know, that, that maybe sound better for the bottom line.
[00:05:20] And so having that person saying, wait, wait, you know, is that really what we want to do is another role that, that, that. I think that seat should play. That's awesome. I [00:05:30] love that idea of having sort of a seat at the table that is represents the customer, whereas those, those, uh, that can be overlooked very easily in an organization, especially a fast growing organization.
[00:05:42] So it's having someone who's dedicated to being the voice of the customer within the organization. Love that. Are there certain types of businesses that, uh, that a fractional CMO is better suited for, or is it really any kind of business could benefit from, uh, Bring on a fractional, I think it's probably any kind of business.
[00:05:58] I mean, you know, let's, let's be [00:06:00] honest, you know, you probably have to be a certain size, you know, because this role is going to come with, you know, even a, even a fraction of a CMO's salary is going to be, you know, a significant hit for some folks. And then of course, you know, there's all the things that have to be done that, uh, you know, that are probably going to be additional costs.
[00:06:18] So, you know, right off the bat, it's, it's gotta be a company of a certain size or a company that, that. That knows they can get to a certain size. Let's put it that way too. But then I think they're probably after that, I [00:06:30] think it's every company. And I think, I think increasingly, you know, it's going to get harder and harder.
[00:06:36] It's already gotten harder to cut through the clutter with just the, you know, run ads or game, the search engines. I mean, a lot of that's. Going away. We've, we've been pretty lazy as marketers to get away with a lot of stuff the last 10 years, quite frankly. And I think the changing technology, the changing landscape of the buyer, you know, if we're not, if we're not really, really putting out information that that person [00:07:00] wants or is entertained by, or if sees as valuable, it's going to get harder and harder to connect with customers.
[00:07:05] And I, I think that that, that's That to me suggests a, a much, somebody who's on the cutting edge of what's going on with, with changing technologies and somebody who, who is very, very focused on, you know, understanding how we cut through the clutter and that's, you know, that to me starts with strategy.
[00:07:22] Let's look at it from the other, the other side. Let's say you are maybe an in house marketer and you, like you said, are thinking about going out of [00:07:30] house and doing sort of marketing strategy for businesses. What is, what are some of the, the sort of the skills, the background qualities that make for a great fractional CMO?
[00:07:41] Really, all you need to do is buy my stuff. No, I had to throw that in there. That was an underhanded pitch. You know, yeah, yeah, that was so, I mean, you don't have to have 40 years of experience, but certainly having some level of experience [00:08:00] working in varied industries or maybe similar industry to, you know, some companies you want to try to help.
[00:08:05] I mean, there's no question that, that. You know, working in a number of companies, you see a lot of different problems. You see a lot of different challenges. You see different ways in which, uh, you know, things fit together, pieces fit together, what channels are important, you know, for certain types of businesses.
[00:08:20] So a level of experience and, and. You know, I recently did some research with fractional CMOs. We surveyed 200 of them and, you know, on average, they had [00:08:30] 10 years of marketing role experience. We didn't ask for fractional CMO experience, but marketing role experience. And I think, I think increasingly. You know, there's a world out there of 60, a hundred million dollar businesses that need somebody that's, that's maybe classically trained as a CMO.
[00:08:49] But there's a lot of three, four, 10 million businesses that just need somebody who can actually set a direction who can orchestrate the various moving parts. You know, that doesn't necessarily mean [00:09:00] that somebody who is managed, uh, you know, a marketing spend in a fortune 500 company. So, you know, a lot of times people get really.
[00:09:08] Caught up in the, Oh, do I have the experience or the chops, you know, to say I'm a fractional CMO. And I think that if you can provide, you know, value to this kind of growing market that needs strategy, then, you know, the answer is yes. What is a, let's say a full practice look like for a fractional CMO?
[00:09:25] What, what type of workload, how many clients are they looking at? Yeah. So there's a [00:09:30] couple of models. I think in the, in the very sort of traditional, maybe people that have say, Oh, I've been doing that for 10 years. That, you know, that model was somebody that was in a CMO role, jumped out on their own. They had contacts who said, Hey, can you come look at what we're doing?
[00:09:45] And ultimately they sold a fourth of their time, you know, to four companies. They may be very well paid, you know, but it's, it's a tough model to scale, obviously, but again, that, you know, there's a heck of a lot of people making a living doing that exact approach. The approach that we've [00:10:00] taken and, and do teach to the folks that, that license our methodology is that part of the challenge with that model, you know, I already mentioned you can't scale it, but part of the reason is because you just kind of fit with what the client says they think they need.
[00:10:14] And it's like, Oh, we need you at the Tuesday sales meeting and we need this and we need that. And so you, you get pulled in and basically sucked into, you know, whatever happens at that company. And then, you know, you do it all over again at company number two. But what we've tried to do is create a [00:10:30] framework and a scope where we're able to come into somebody and say, look, here's what I'm going to do.
[00:10:34] Here's what you're going to do. Here's the results we hope to get, you know, here's the cost for it. And, you know, we know, uh. But through years of experience, what you need, and we'll direct and guide, obviously, you know, every company is a little different, but I think by starting with that framework or that scope, you're actually able to, you know, really control the engagement.
[00:10:55] The other thing that I think it allows you to do is if you're working with a repeatable [00:11:00] scope or repeatable system, you get really good at it. You get, you know, faster at it. You can deliver more value, uh, doing it. And you can actually start to delegate elements. You know, I think that's sometimes the fallacy of this role, uh, fractional CMO is that, that, you know, the thought is you're buying my big fat brain.
[00:11:17] Right. And if I, you know, I have to like come in and have genius ideas and, you know, I can't delegate any of that, you know, so I get really sucked in. And so if you're working from a repeatable process that you know works, you certainly can [00:11:30] delegate a great deal of it. You can start having account managers do it and you can start having, you know, other consultants in your firm.
[00:11:36] So we, we've actually shown people how to scale it to 20, 30 clients, you know, using a model that, you know, certainly is a, probably an agency hybrid in some people's eyes, but, uh, is a model that works for a very, very large swath of the market. Well, what I love about that, John, is that you're doing, first off, you're, you're guiding your clients, clients in my, my experience, they want to [00:12:00] be guided.
[00:12:00] They want to be led, especially with someone with a C title, right? Even the fractional CMO, like they don't want to be telling the CMO what to do. The CMO needs to come in with a plan, a strategy, and the fact that it is process driven and it sounds like your methodology is, is, is great in that respect that.
[00:12:18] The fractional CMO doesn't have to develop this whole methodology. They, they can lean into the thing that you built that allows them to reach that scale. You know, personally, you know, as I was leaving my, my corporate world [00:12:30] jobs, uh, or career, I should say behind, I stepped into, into a little bit of this fractional CMO world for a minute.
[00:12:36] And I did exactly what you suggested. I, you shouldn't do, which is here's, you know, I'm going to come in and save the world and I'm going to join all the meetings and so on and so forth. I definitely did it the wrong way. Because I was, you know, think approaching it like a part time job. And I think the mindset, I learned that that wasn't the right thing for me because that wasn't scalable.
[00:12:56] And I think it would sound like your, your methodology is, is definitely [00:13:00] built more for more scale. Could you share more about the methodology that you built and that you're sharing and licensing out? Yeah. So the, the way that we actually work, we actually call it fractional CMO plus, because a lot of the, again, I'm talking about probably that mid market, uh, size firm and a lot of those firms, they don't have marketing team.
[00:13:20] Maybe they have somebody doing social media or something, or they've hired some, some third party folks to do things, but they don't have a marketing department or a marketing team. So we build out the [00:13:30] strategy. And then of course the logical next question is, well, this is awesome, but. Who's going to do all this?
[00:13:34] So, so we actually add, you know, implementation. So effectively what, what I brought to the market, we've been actually doing this for 10 or 15 years, honestly, we have leaned into the fractional CMO positioning over the last couple of years. Because frankly, if I would have called it that 10 years ago, people would have thought I was crazy.
[00:13:56] So, you know, now the market's ready for it. They understand it, they get [00:14:00] it. And so it makes sense to lean into the positioning. But. Well, the, the big innovation, I suppose, that, that we brought 10, 15 years ago was that we would go and, you know, meet with somebody, run them through a strategy process that we use.
[00:14:13] And, and they were like, great, you know, this is, this is awesome. I want you to come work for me. And we basically say, great. First thing we're going to do is there's a process that we call strategy. First takes 30 to 45 days. It costs this price and that's phase one. That's what you get to buy. That's the only thing you can buy.[00:14:30]
[00:14:30] We don't pass go without doing it. Now that plan of course is going to, you know, give us the work we need. We're going to, we're going to narrow our target market focus. We're going to come up with messaging that actually differentiates you. We're going to use that messaging to really build out all kinds of initiatives.
[00:14:46] We are going to build a complete end to end customer journey. We're going to take a strategic editorial approach to content, and we're going to identify your really the priorities for the next six months for your marketing. At the end of that, again, [00:15:00] wink, wink, nod, nod. You can go and do it yourself. Or, you know, we'll do it.
[00:15:04] I mean, 100 percent of the time, you know, it is like, yeah, it's like, man, you are now our trusted advisor. Please, sir, you know, execute the plan. So it really, in a lot of ways I did it. I did it because I couldn't make the other way work, you know, where I just came in and did tactics. And what we found was this actually helped us attract the right client and it created the right relationship with that client.
[00:15:28] You know, we're no longer a vendor. I mean, we [00:15:30] really are their trusted advisor. Hey, it's Corey. I hope you're enjoying this episode. And I want to let you know that I have a new bestselling book that has just come out that gives you my proven system to escape founder led sales. It's called Anyone Not Everyone, and it's been endorsed by Aaron Ross, April Dunford, Dr.
[00:15:48] Benjamin Hardy, John Rulon, and many others. If you'd like to get the audiobook absolutely for free, there's a link below in the description, or you could simply go to anyonenoteveryone. com [00:16:00] and start listening right now. I love the idea that you, it's a, I think of it as a, as a roadmap and you get paid to develop the roadmap.
[00:16:06] So you're, like you said, you're, you're on the inside, you know, all the metrics, you know, all the problems and you have a solution that you're, that's your position to, yeah. And you're, you're really pointing to what I think is, is, you know, how many companies get brought in and they're like, give us a proposal for what we should do.
[00:16:23] Well, I don't know. I don't know enough about your company. You're right. So you're, you're absolutely right. It, it, we get [00:16:30] to propose the right thing because we've gone through the right process. Exactly. And they're effectively already in business with you and you've diagnosed their problem in a way they probably haven't thought of and you can provide the solution.
[00:16:42] It is a, it's a, it's a very elegant way to go about it. So what are some, maybe some success stories or case studies of fractional CMOs that you've maybe been involved in that have been successful? Like what, what, what does success look like for the, for the client? Yeah. [00:17:00] So, so I'll start with, um, a client on our end, and then I'll talk about, you know, the agency and that, that maybe we've certified, so, you know, probably one of our greatest success stories is, is a, is a company that you wouldn't think would necessarily hire this type of role, a remodeling contractor.
[00:17:15] They were a couple million dollars in business at the time. And what they were struggling with ultimately was just, they couldn't differentiate, you know, everybody and anybody who said they remodeled homes, you know, they were in competition with. The fact of the matter was they did far better work. You know, [00:17:30] they, they, you know, far better service, but again, you know, we're really struggling to differentiate themselves.
[00:17:35] And so we came in, developed a strategic plan, really helped them understand how they were different. Put them in the right channels. You know, you think about this is, This is 10 years ago, you know, you think about a remodeling contractor that is now producing content and is on social media and is running ads to, you know, to different, you know, different things, creating YouTube videos.
[00:17:56] And so, you know, we were able to really dominate their market [00:18:00] because of the opportunity, you know, there wasn't a, it was a local business, but it would, you know, certainly, uh, They weren't competing with people that were suggesting they do the, you know, the things we were suggesting they are today. They were 2 million business at the time they are today, a 50 million business.
[00:18:15] And, you know, they certainly have competition, but they are clearly, clearly, uh, in a fairly large market, you know, the, you know, the, the 100 pound gorilla in their market because of taking a strategic approach [00:18:30] when, you know, really nobody else was. So in terms of people that have licensed our system, Debbie Howard had a business, uh, that focuses on a niche, uh, senior living.
[00:18:42] Uh, so, you know, all the care facilities and things that are out there, a very growing business as people are, uh, Aging populations, aging, and, you know, she came in, she had a nice business, a couple million dollars, you know, maybe 10 or 12 staff members. And she saw that she didn't really have a systematic approach.
[00:18:59] So [00:19:00] she adopted our system and now I, I won't take all the credit. She's done amazing things, but you know, today they are, you know, sitting at 10 million and, you know, staff of 50 and. You know, are innovating like crazy in the, in the industry. And, uh, you know, she, uh, really credits a lot of the structure that we were able to give her, you know, to being able to grow that practice.
[00:19:22] That's awesome. That's really fantastic. What are some misconceptions or challenges associated with implementing [00:19:30] sort of a fractional CMO model? Well, I think the probably the biggest one is it is scope creep. That's problem probably for everybody. But you know, our model is. The strategy is pretty easy to contain, right?
[00:19:43] It's like, here's what we're going to do. Here's all the steps we've done it a thousand times. You know, we've got an odd lockdown, you know, that part's pretty easy. But then you go into a retainer model. I mean, our, our model is that we want to come up with a number that, uh, you're comfortable paying us for the rest of your life.[00:20:00]
[00:20:00] And that's, you know, that's our approach. And then let us execute from that, right? Well, the problem with that is we, if we, We have to be very mindful of how much time we can invest, you know, or how much time we can put in the client. And it's again, a lot of, well, uh, this came from me. And so it probably comes from a lot of the people that I've hired over the years.
[00:20:19] You know, we see what needs to be done and we want to do it. We see what the possibilities are if we do X and we want to do it. And so you have to be very mindful of margin in that type [00:20:30] of arrangement. And, you know, really you, you have a budget, you have a time budget, you have a, you know, a lot of budget requirements.
[00:20:36] If you want to stay, I mean, our goal is to stay at 50 to 60 percent margin on a retainer basis with a client. And to do that, you have to stay pretty disciplined. That makes sense. And then from a business perspective, what should they be looking for? Let's say that. They're maybe listening to this. They're saying, oh, okay, I'm, I'm ready.
[00:20:55] I think, I think I'm open to hiring a fractional CMO. What should they be looking for? Like [00:21:00] what, what, what are the candidates that they should take seriously? Yeah. A couple of the things we've talked about, you know, check out what, what their background is. Where have they worked? Where have they had experiences?
[00:21:09] What industries? I mean, that. It doesn't have to be your industry, frankly. I mean, that's a trap some people fall into that you actually want a variety of experience and enough experience at a level that's going to actually bring you along, right? Somebody that's worked with in a 50 million company is probably going to have things to say to somebody that's in a [00:21:30] 10 million company that wants to go to 50 million.
[00:21:32] So, you know, certainly the right experience is important. But secondly, if they come in and say, okay, what do you need, you know, and don't seem to have a structure or a process or a framework, uh, that they can work from, that's probably a red flag. And to me, if it, and, and it doesn't mean that they have to have written a book or something like that, but if they don't have a process, there's going to be a lot of wasted time.
[00:21:56] You know, even if you get to the, a good point, there's going to be a lot of [00:22:00] wasted time. So why not, Why not go with somebody that's done something that has a repeatable system that they could say, okay, here's what we do first. Here's what we need second, because you know, if your idea of strategy is getting everybody in a room, you know, with post it notes and, you know, having this one big meeting, you know, you're probably not going to get very far.
[00:22:18] So have, have somebody to have a plan and a process. And then I would say also, I would look. pretty hard to what kind of resources they can bring. You know, do they have partners that they can bring in certain areas? Do [00:22:30] they have, like, maybe you have some very odd need, you know, or a very specific need for a certain type of expertise, you know, can you tap into their I'll age myself here.
[00:22:40] They're Rolodex of, of, of, uh, you know, bench that they can, uh, that they can bring to bear to those, those three elements I think are, are, you know, at least starting points for, you know, what you want to look for. And then the final one, true, truly, if you're going to look at this role, As a partner, as a trusted advisor, there certainly has to be some [00:23:00] chemistry there as well.
[00:23:01] Are they asking you the right questions? You know, do they seem to, to, to care about what you care about in the business? Those are things that, that you certainly, you know, may, those are sort of gut feel things, but those are important. Those are definitely important. So just to feed this back to you, experience is important.
[00:23:18] Definitely check out the experience. What's that? Do they have a process? Do they come with vetted resources that they could actually, you know, help you to execute? And then is there a chemistry there? [00:23:30] Yeah. You listened well. You listened well, Corey. I was taking notes. And so what, as a business owner, what should I expect to pay a fractional CMO?
[00:23:39] Sure. So there's probably, I mean, we probably could come up with some sort of sliding scale by revenue, but paying more doesn't always bring you more. But I think you should be expecting, you know, a. Five, somewhere in the 5, 000 to 10, 000 a month range as a, you know, fee. Now, again, that's going to depend [00:24:00] on what they're bringing, you know, what, what's baked into that, you know, there's some, you know, we have some amount of deliverable, uh, baked in.
[00:24:06] I mean, we take care of website and content and, and some SEO inside of our feeds, obviously things. You know, print media, advertising, you know, things of that nature will fall outside of that, of course, but that's, uh, you know, that's the range that you probably should be expecting. And that's, that's why this is probably a 2 or 3 million dollar business, you know, that probably is ready to do that or a business that.
[00:24:29] Certainly wants to go [00:24:30] to the, you know, that two, five, 10 million. Yeah. Beautiful. And there's plenty of those businesses available and they definitely need help. So is there anything else regarding like a great fit for someone who may be considering licensing your methodology? You mentioned they have a number of years of experience.
[00:24:45] They've done a number of things like who, who would be an ideal fit for. Being able to come in and really make a lot of use out of this methodology. So there really are two people that we see all the time that, that, that have tremendous [00:25:00] success. So that person that maybe has a lot of years, maybe 20 years of experience, but they've really never done their own business.
[00:25:07] And so we can meet them, you know, right in startup phase. And give them, you know, save them years, you know, of building out this process of building out even their website or, you know, just all the things to get started, the positioning, the messaging. I mean, we just have years and years of tools that they're going to acquire.
[00:25:24] Now it's not, you know, it's not magic fairy dust. They still kind of have to work and go out and get clients and, [00:25:30] but we'll give them a real headstart. We'll, we'll mitigate a ton of the risk because they'll be able to focus on delivering. You know, from day one, a process that we've, uh, developed and can train them on.
[00:25:42] The second group is, and there's a growing, growing group of these folks. They've been successful at getting clients. They have really more of a consultancy or an age or an agency model where they're doing a lot of the tactics. Like, you know, somebody calls them and says, Oh, you do this. Okay. I need this, this, and this kind of a [00:26:00] la carte menu, you know, package almost.
[00:26:02] And what those folks are seeing is. There's a ton of pressure on pricing tactics. You know, people are, you know, AI is, is, you know, emboldening people to, you know, be able to buy websites for 500 theoretically. And so the folks that, that, you know, they know how to get clients, they've got a decent business, but they're working harder than ever and really making less than ever.
[00:26:25] You know, this is a model that they can implement pretty quickly and really see [00:26:30] some dramatic, dramatic increases. In fact, it's, it's kind of funny, but what we've seen over the years is if you've sell tactics, you know, there's going to be a lot of pressure on the price because somebody will shop this tactic against this tactic, right?
[00:26:41] If you run somebody through strategy first and become a trusted advisor. You can charge twice as much for the same tactic, because now what you are is you're orchestrating, you know, and you're running the show, so to speak, and as long as you are executing, as long as they're seeing results, there's a lot less, you know, [00:27:00] questioning about like, what are we going to do this month?
[00:27:02] And how much is that going to cost? And how many hours do I get? So it changes the relationship in the right way. Yeah. I mean, I like the sound of getting paid twice as much for the same tactics. So that's, that's pretty cool. John, if I had known that this was around when I left my, my corporate world, I may have gone a different direction.
[00:27:19] So it sounds really, really useful for those folks. I'm, I'm leaning towards the, the 20 years experience, maybe not, I've ever launched a business themselves. And I imagine there's quite a [00:27:30] few of those folks, you know, post pandemic who considering. Leaving a corporate career and stepping out on their own.
[00:27:36] So I think that there's potentially a lot of, a lot of interest here. So the fastest growing age group of starting businesses right now is people in their fifties. Okay. Well, I think you've, you've obviously thought a lot about this. You've, you have a lot of years of experience that you've been able to pour into this and it sounds like a wonderful methodology.
[00:27:54] Is there anything else that we should cover while we talk about this topic of fractional CMOs? Well, [00:28:00] I, you did a great job question. I don't have anything really else to add. I mean, I, I'd invite people to, uh, I'm sure you're going to probably ask me, but I'd, I'd invite people to just, they want to learn more about this.
[00:28:10] It's just ductate marketing. com. D U C T. T A P E marketing. com. Whether you are a business that's thinking about, uh, hiring a fractional CMO or you're one of these agency consultant folks that want to learn about our licensing program, you can find it all there. Beautiful. And John knows his stuff guys.
[00:28:28] So definitely check it out. If this is something you're [00:28:30] interested in. John, thanks so much for coming on the show. This has been, uh, this has been awesome. Thanks. Thanks. It was fun. That's it for today. I'm Corey Quinn. And I hope you join me again next time on the deep specialization podcast. If you received value from the show, please go to apple podcasts and leave us a review.
[00:28:47] Thanks. And we'll see you soon.
