DeepSpecialization_Eric Brown Nora DiNuzzo_EP 64_Audio _Edited_V1_
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[00:00:00] Corey Quinn: Welcome to the deep specialization podcast, the show where we blend focus, strategy, and client intimacy in order to scale and simplify our businesses and our lives. I'm your host, Corey Quinn. Let's jump into the show today. I'm joined by Eric Brown and Nora Denuso from blood, sweat, and tears. Welcome guys.
[00:00:19] Corey Quinn: Thanks Corey. Thanks
[00:00:20] Eric Brown: Corey. Appreciate you having us.
[00:00:22] Corey Quinn: I'm super excited for your conversation. Uh, kind of kick things off by sharing a little bit about who you are and the work you do.
[00:00:30] Eric Brown: Yeah, absolutely. So Nora and I both have about 15 years working in and around agencies. I was in house at an agency driving growth for about six years.
[00:00:40] Eric Brown: And I spent the last 10 years consulting into agencies. I'm going to give Nora a moment to tell about herself, but she never does a good job of bragging on herself. Uh, she has, she has been in two specific agencies that she has led through a skill to sell, uh, opportunity. And the last agency she was at, she tripled in three years.
[00:00:59] Eric Brown: And so I [00:01:00] just think that's incredible and worth bragging about because there are capabilities, there's skills. There's awareness that came from that, uh, from her pitching hundreds of We're able to bring that into the agencies that we talk to. And I just think that's very, very valuable. So, uh, that is, uh, my tout for my co founder, Nora, but I'll let you take a second to talk about yourself.
[00:01:22] Nora DiNuzzo: Oh, thanks, Eric. I was saying today, cause, uh, we're recording here on Valentine's day. And I was, I sent Eric a text this morning, like. Thank you for being my like partner in business and my perfect match. And it's so funny because we talk about how different we actually are as people, but that's actually an advantage to our clients and it's advantage in working together that we're not just like an echo chamber for each other.
[00:01:45] Nora DiNuzzo: So we come from pretty different backgrounds and approaches to business development. You know, it was fun hearing Eric's like venture into agencies, like how his path was different than mine. And Starting like all the way, like back to the yellow [00:02:00] page, you know, sales and like really the sales aspect of it.
[00:02:03] Nora DiNuzzo: And mine is a little bit more of like the business development strategy, pitch strategy side of things. And it was funny, like came up, started as an account manager, always at independent agencies. So I like to say I'm NDAF everything from a 10 person boutique to a 200 person multi office shop. Uh, which, where I am in Pittsburgh is, is a larger shop, but not, not so much for New York or, or other ways.
[00:02:26] Nora DiNuzzo: But, um, yeah, I, I was always told, the feedback I would get on my performance reviews is, Wow, you're really strategic for a business developer, meaning I am a horrible project manager. I am not a paper pusher. Like I don't do Gantt charts. And thankfully, most of my career, I had a great project management team and partners to be able to help me through that part.
[00:02:48] Nora DiNuzzo: But like, what I really love is the psychology. Like that's why I got into advertising. I like to say, uh, I was predestined for it. It's in my blood. My father was a musician or is there [00:03:00] my, both my parents are still with me. They're just retired from their careers. So they're, they're loving retirement. But, um, my dad and his whole side of the family is artists and musicians.
[00:03:07] Nora DiNuzzo: My mom's whole side of the family is therapists. So really to me, uh, advertising is the union of art and psychology. And I was that kid, like. For fun reading my mom's copy of the DSM for like I loved psychology But like truthfully I really just didn't want to like listen to people's personal problems for a career like there's a saying amongst therapists that every therapist needs a therapist and That is true.
[00:03:32] Nora DiNuzzo: And so I was like, you know what I Don't want to listen to people's personal problems all day. And like, I am a musician, I'm a singer. And I was like, I don't want to rely on my voice for my career. So what could I do that would bring psychology and art together? And that's what led me to advertising. So just a little bit of my background in that respect, what got me here, but we love the people of advertising.
[00:03:53] Nora DiNuzzo: We love the world of advertising. Even though I stepped away from it for a little bit to focus on consulting, [00:04:00] consulting small businesses. Eric pulled me back in a few months ago and said, Hey, you know, I know, I see what you're doing with the small businesses, but like, you're really good at agencies and you really know agencies.
[00:04:11] Nora DiNuzzo: And why don't we do this thing together? And I was like, you know, We should. So that's why we're here.
[00:04:17] Corey Quinn: Here we are. That's awesome. I did not know you have a background in singing. I think that's really great. Uh, I might, I might ask you to sing for us later. Oh
[00:04:24] Nora DiNuzzo: gosh. Well, not after running a two hour workshop.
[00:04:27] Nora DiNuzzo: Oh boy. Give me a horse. I'll be on the wrong day, Gorey.
[00:04:33] Corey Quinn: Yeah. That's all good. Maybe we'll do a follow up. Uh, do both of you have a tremendous amount of real world experience in growing agencies now with your company, your consultancy, you are helping agencies. What is some of the specific problems you help agencies solve?
[00:04:49] Eric Brown: It really starts with helping them understand the, like the why behind their growth. We talk a lot about what do you want to accomplish and by when, and Cory, the two challenges that we [00:05:00] see with most agencies is they don't have a clear growth strategy. And they don't have the resources to execute that strategy.
[00:05:06] Eric Brown: And we know a lot of the reasons why. Majority of agencies are born and they've grown from their network. And that kind of runs dry at a point in time. And also, uh, agencies are typically not built around being sales engines. And so, uh, it's kind of the antithesis of why most, you know, the seed of most agencies.
[00:05:24] Eric Brown: But having an understanding of what you want to accomplish and what it's going to take to get there is paramount to being successful. And we just really want to help, um, help provide that for agencies. Like, what is that path that's going to take you from where you are to where you want to go with the understanding of the resources that you have available to accomplish that goal and then support them in getting there?
[00:05:48] Corey Quinn: Your, um, so your website has this great headline. That says, you've worked too hard for it to be this hard. And I think that kind of speaks to your ethos as a brand [00:06:00] and really the kind of agencies you're, you're trying to attract. Can you talk more about that?
[00:06:04] Nora DiNuzzo: Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, when we wrote that line and we're thinking about who our audience is, like, it's not, It could be every agency owner, but it's probably not every agency owner, right?
[00:06:16] Nora DiNuzzo: It's like, it's a certain mindset of an owner that's been through a particular struggle and is at a certain place in the life cycle of their business. And, you know, I thought a lot about the people I worked for my whole career, you know, the owners of the agencies I worked for in my twenties and thirties, and now I'm in my forties.
[00:06:35] Nora DiNuzzo: But, you know, this idea that we, We as agency people do pour so much of our own blood, sweat and tears into the business. It's the nights, it's the weekends, it's the being on the planes and the trains and the, the crazy car rental snafus and missing, missing holidays, missing our kids, baseball games, you know, unfortunately at the worst extremes, like having, you [00:07:00] know, relationship difficulties, uh, or breakups, having drug or alcohol problems.
[00:07:05] Nora DiNuzzo: Like, I mean, Truly, like our industry puts a lot of people through the ringer, you know, a lot of people figure out a way to live it and love it. And a lot of people, it kind of chews up and spits out. So just thinking about all those blood, sweat, and tears that we've all poured into this work, and we wouldn't do it if we didn't love it.
[00:07:23] Nora DiNuzzo: Right. Like we, we love something about advertising, about marketing. That compels us to do this. Cause yes, you can make a good living at it, but also like there's a lot you risk and put at stake, like in doing that, you know, so any business that's deadline driven, I would say is the same. So we thought about that.
[00:07:41] Nora DiNuzzo: And especially for those agency owners getting towards the end of their career. Who maybe want to sell their business, who want to exit at some point, who do want to retire, who don't want to die working. Um, you know, is the next generation ready to buy your business out from under you? Do you have something that's sellable?
[00:07:58] Nora DiNuzzo: Do you have something [00:08:00] somebody else wants? And sometimes I think we get so kind of tied up in working like in the business that we don't work on the business. Like we're, it's kind of like an ostrich, like with our head in the sand, it's like, we're down in the sand. And then one day we look up and we're like, I want to sell this thing.
[00:08:15] Nora DiNuzzo: I think I want to think I want to retire. And it's like, Hmm, do we actually have something that anybody wants to buy? So, uh, that's another thing that we kind of help agencies think through, especially if they're later in the stage of their cycle is really for growth modes that we work within stabilize.
[00:08:33] Nora DiNuzzo: We call them the four S's stabilize, sustain, scale, or sell. Okay. So almost every agency is in one of those phases and you can go through multiple of those phases over the course of multiple years. So some years are bad years and you had a, Hey, I had a cliff off the ocean. You had a bit of a free fall and it's like what strategies you need to employ and what sort of like mindset you need for your team to like dig back out of a hole.
[00:08:58] Nora DiNuzzo: Very different than if you're doubling [00:09:00] or tripling down on growth you've already had. So a lot of this is mindset and just like helping agency owners. And leaders think through like, where are we now to Eric's point? Where are we trying to go? What has just happened in the last three years? Like usually three years is the most instructive period.
[00:09:18] Nora DiNuzzo: And it's also like what most acquirers are looking at as far as your books. So like, were you profitable the last three years? Was your revenue going up the last three years? Like what story is the last three years telling you or someone else? Um, that's really important. So yeah, those are kind of the, the modalities we help agencies think through.
[00:09:37] Nora DiNuzzo: But like, of course everyone needs to be growing because if you're not growing, you're dying. So, so everyone should be concerned with growth, but how mo, yeah. So there's a, how motivated by growth are you? And like, we have a saying that like, in order to work with us, like you need to be willing to participate in your own growth.
[00:09:54] Nora DiNuzzo: So we have our own company. You have your own company. We are not just going to become like part of your [00:10:00] company. Like we might be working in a fractional capacity on, you know, on your business and in your business with you. However, you know, it is still your company at the end of the day, you need to be responsible for growing it.
[00:10:12] Nora DiNuzzo: We will help you, but we're not just going to come in and do it for you. Like gone are the days that I am someone's full time business developer and like doing it all for them. Like, Nope, I'm not doing that anymore. But. But I will help and Eric will help, you know,
[00:10:25] Eric Brown: love that. The other thing that I would add to that Corey is, you know, that line, you've worked too hard for it to be this hard.
[00:10:30] Eric Brown: Uh, Nora touched on it a little bit, but it's like, we, we realize why it's hard. And it's not hard because of the clients. Like you always knew that there was going to be the client challenges. And, and oftentimes like the, the struggle that we hear from most agencies, Is because of the growth challenge. So, you know, we, we talked to, uh, you know, tens of agencies every month.
[00:10:50] Eric Brown: And it's, it's not about like, uh, yes, there's like staffing issues and there's like changes in the marketplace, but like, that's not really what is, is bearing [00:11:00] like the weight bearing down on most agencies, you know, we've talked to numerous agencies that like, they've said, Hey, like we're really ready to just hang this thing out.
[00:11:07] Eric Brown: thing up. And the reason why is because they don't have, they don't have the growth potential and or they don't have the types of clients that they set out to service. You know, like when they had the dream of becoming an entrepreneur and going off on their own or starting their own shop. Um, they had an idea of the things that they wanted to do and the types of brands they wanted to do that for.
[00:11:30] Eric Brown: And like, this isn't like the sexy thing that they were probably thinking about, but it does directly relate to their pipeline. And if their pipeline is not supporting the financial requirements of their team and their growth and the type of work that they wanna do, then like they're, they're not fulfilling their dreams.
[00:11:50] Eric Brown: And that's where it comes like. That's what it boils down to for Nora and I's. And she's, as she talked about, like, we love the people of advertising. Uh, we, we love their passion, their [00:12:00] creativity. And the fact that they like us are entrepreneurs and they set out for stuff to do something that like they didn't set out for that thing to break or to fail, and we know how to support them, uh, and ensuring that it doesn't fail, but yes, like Nora said, they've got to be willing to participate in their own growth.
[00:12:16] Eric Brown: Um, and again, it's not the idea that they had, like, Oh, you know, um, you know, I'm going to start going, start this creative shop or this, um, you know, this experiential shop or whatever it was. And like, they were going to think every day about their pipeline, but that is the, the things that we get into when we work with agencies start way before that.
[00:12:38] Eric Brown: Um, and it dictates how they appear, how they think about themselves, how they articulate themselves. Um, their, their core branding, but then that's, those are the things that enable or inform and, and dictate their pipeline.
[00:12:53] Corey Quinn: Very cool. So, you know, having, having been also in the agency space for a while, I know that [00:13:00] especially in the earlier days of building an agency, it's very tactical.
[00:13:04] Corey Quinn: It's a very tactical organization, like there's processes and SOPs and there's all these steps. And it's very manual in some respects, but over time, um, you know, the founders, um, to your point need to start thinking about the strategy. Um, at what point does an agency at, you know, in their life cycle, when does, when does strategy really become the forefront of what they should be focusing in on?
[00:13:29] Nora DiNuzzo: I mean, if you could have done it from the beginning, that would have been great. However, we know, um, and this is true of startups too. And really like when any agency starts up, they're a startup. So like a lot of times what startups really need is they need to get going. They need, they need momentum. They need movement.
[00:13:50] Nora DiNuzzo: They need MVP and they need traction, right? Like to use the startup lingo. So it's like, but strategy takes time. So a lot of times what doesn't happen at the beginning [00:14:00] when you're trying to like Prove MVP and traction is if you don't think to start strategically. You might've built a brand on sand a little bit.
[00:14:08] Nora DiNuzzo: Like we might, you might not have laid all the foundation that you needed to delay or should have laid. And that's okay. Um, it doesn't mean you can't go back and reverse engineer or relay some foundation, uh, from a strategy standpoint. So that's one thing we're trying to analyze and sort of dive in and diagnose for our clients is what they kind of all have in common is they're not growing at the rate they want to be.
[00:14:31] Nora DiNuzzo: And they can't figure out why. It's like, My P& L says that I'm not growing at the rate I want to be, you know, my balance sheet says I'm not growing at the rate I want to be. My, you know, my margins or my EBITDA is not where I want it to be. So it's like, all right, I want the picture to change, but I'm not sure how to change it.
[00:14:48] Nora DiNuzzo: I'm not exactly sure what to do. And this is where agencies think very tactically. It's like, Well, I should do one thing and another thing or a bunch of things at once. And that will be the key to it. Right. And it's like, [00:15:00] well, actually like backup, like let's look at the foundation that you had laid in the same way that a home inspector would, you know, check out the foundation.
[00:15:08] Nora DiNuzzo: It's not just all about the curb appeal. It's like, what's going on with the bones of this, you know? So we really try to dig into that. We first work with clients to understand like what is missing strategically that maybe wasn't laid from the beginning. So Wednesday, there's a. A perfect time to do strategy other than the beginning.
[00:15:24] Nora DiNuzzo: The beginning is the best. If you can think about doing it then, but if you didn't, it's not a big deal. You can always back up and, and, and relay that foundation.
[00:15:32] Eric Brown: And to Nora's point, sometimes you need to get into market and you need to understand who you are and what you love. You know, I mean, we know the typical agency, uh, birth story as like, I was at a shop and decided that I want to go off and do my own thing.
[00:15:46] Eric Brown: And. I had some relationships and I had some business that would probably follow me and, uh, went out and did that. I had some people that would support, you know, uh, some team members that could fill these roles. And then some of those relationships turned into business. And, uh, there's [00:16:00] that, that network that, that, that gets the agency started.
[00:16:03] Eric Brown: And, uh, but then once they're establishing what their core capabilities are and the industries that they want to serve, then everything starts to change because we bring on clients. And then we need to staff up and we need more resources, uh, for those, uh, to support those clients when we don't have the pipeline or we don't have that next piece of revenue.
[00:16:22] Eric Brown: That's when margins start to get really tricky because like, Oh, we need to service this client. Uh, but we've overstaffed or we've over resourced and our utilization is off. Um, and so, you know, those are the things that kind of help shape the agency's foundation. And sometimes you need to go through a little bit of that, or it's like, Hey, we started working, uh, like, you know, we thought that we wanted to have this capability or deliver this capability.
[00:16:45] Eric Brown: And it's like, That's not really what we want to do. So anyway, you know, sometimes it just takes a period of time to really figure out who you are and then we need to refine it from there. But, you know, to the earlier point, it has to, then there has to [00:17:00] be that foundation of, of strategy to inform the tactics, because that's where we see most agencies going wrong is grasping onto a tactic because they've gotten to a place where they either want to grow.
[00:17:11] Eric Brown: Or they need to grow and they just want to do something. And we applaud them for the initiative of wanting to do something and putting some oomph behind their growth plan. But if you don't have the strategy to inform the tactic that you're choosing, It's likely going to fail because it's not going to serve you well.
[00:17:32] Eric Brown: Uh, you don't know how long that tactic should take to come to fruition. You don't know what resources you really need to, to see it all the way through. And it might just not be a good representation of the agency, the way that coming back to that branding work, the way that you show up out in, in public, uh, you know, if that's fake, we all know, and like, see these, uh, you know, fake, uh, personalities, whether it's a brand or a person.
[00:17:58] Eric Brown: You know, like [00:18:00] authenticity is palpable, you know, and, uh, you know, if we, if we weren't aren't authentic to ourselves, then like that resonates with like the, the brands that you're trying to bring on as clients. And so we need to be able to leverage that strategy or to build that strategy to then inform the tactics so that it can then be authentic.
[00:18:20] Eric Brown: And then it's natural. And you're not showing up to a party, uh, with a fake personality and trying to be somebody that you're not, and it's just. Painful experience for everyone. Most, I think most agencies think that the growth is a challenge and it's painful and it's like pushing this boulder up the hill and that's because they're pushing a boulder up the hill.
[00:18:42] Eric Brown: They're not doing the things that are natural to them. It's like, you know, um, you're trying to, to, to go run a marathon when you hate, like, why would you choose to do that? You know, like go find a way to exert yourself. It's like. That resonates with, uh, who you are as a, [00:19:00] you know, as a brand and the resources and the expertise that you have and the way that your, your prospects expect you to show up.
[00:19:07] Eric Brown: So all of that should be very fluid and natural. Um, not to say that it's easy. Uh, but it feels more seamless and more authentic when you've done the work to figure out who you are and how you should show up
[00:19:22] Corey Quinn: awesome. So in your work, you, you talk about this concept of first mile strategies. Can you share with what those are?
[00:19:29] Nora DiNuzzo: Yes. So, uh, the analogy here. Is that, uh, as I said, a lot of people want to like come and, and have us fill the pipeline, right? It's like, Oh, you do business development. We would like leads, leads, leads, leads. It's like, you know, I'm okay. I'm sure you would. And we all do. Right. But first let's talk about that foundation.
[00:19:52] Nora DiNuzzo: Right. And so if you think about, uh, to use Eric's, uh, point about running, and this is a running analogy, which is hilarious because I'm not a runner, [00:20:00] but I like analogies. Here we go. So If an ultra marathon is a hundred miles, sometimes, sometimes, sometimes less, sometimes more, but let's call it a hundred.
[00:20:09] Nora DiNuzzo: Okay. So that's pitching. That is like, we're going to have to pitch. We're going to have to do biz, Deb. We're going to have to do marketing. All I'll just use pitching as like a catch all for like selling ourselves, right? Like that's a constant, always on process for agencies. It shouldn't be a stop and a star.
[00:20:26] Nora DiNuzzo: It should, you should always have your foot on the gas. So if that process is, you know, 99 out of a hundred miles, the point is that if these foundational strategies were not laid, if the first mile, if in the first mile of a race, you had a really bad blister, well, the other 99 miles are going to be really painful to run.
[00:20:45] Nora DiNuzzo: Or if you had a shin splint in that you didn't wrap or something in mile one, how are you going to run the other 99 miles? And so it's like, almost like agencies are crippling themselves.
[00:20:59] Nora DiNuzzo: [00:21:00] And so what we try to do is get agencies to back up and look at those first mile strategies and so those are, um, and as a strategist myself, I think strategy is done a disservice by kind of being all lumped together. There's so many different types of strategy. And so what we do is we break out first mile strategies into four, four core strategies, uh, which are brand business content and comms.
[00:21:25] Nora DiNuzzo: So content and comms are kind of like sisters. They go together, they go to the party together. Um, you kind of don't have one without the other, but if you haven't thought through your brand strategy or why, you know, what you're all about. Your aesthetics, your narrative, your story, all of that, that's super important.
[00:21:44] Nora DiNuzzo: And then from a business, you know, strategy standpoint, who are you for? And is there a service market fit between what your ICP wants and needs and what you offer? Like, are you going to be like magnets that, that attract each other? [00:22:00] And it's like an instant sale and an instant click and connection. Or are you going to be like ships in the night that missed each other?
[00:22:06] Nora DiNuzzo: Like. I said, I do this and this person actually wanted something we don't even do or offer. It's like Disconnect, you know, so yeah, so there's that of course there's all stuff about like pricing and profit and all and all that good stuff that kind of fits in the business strategy and You know, we've talked before with you cory about like go to market strategies of like you're if you're trying to go to market in a in a different new better way like How do you get yourself prepared for that?
[00:22:30] Nora DiNuzzo: Like that kind of sits probably somewhere between a few of those. Like, I'd be interested to hear what your perspective on go to market, like how you think about how that crosses brand business content and comms. But yeah, that's kind of how we think about it is that if you don't lay that first mile foundation, if you don't get prepped for the race, it's going to be a really hard, exhausting race.
[00:22:53] Nora DiNuzzo: And that's, I think how a lot of people think about biz dev or growth is that it's just exhausting. And [00:23:00] you have to prepare, you know, for a race that's that long
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[00:24:10] Corey Quinn: Today, go to anyone, not everyone. com. That's anyone, not everyone. com now back to the show. I love that analogy of the, um, of the ultra marathon, um, and having a blister in the first mile, um, makes good sense. When, when you think of brand strategy, what. How do you approach creating a brand strategy for an existing agency who maybe is, you know, busy doing a lot of work for a lot of different types of clients?
[00:24:42] Corey Quinn: Like, how do you, how do you approach that?
[00:24:43] Nora DiNuzzo: Yeah, well, I think, you know, a lot of times we're reinventing a wheel that doesn't need to be reinvented. So for instance, um, and this is a controversial topic amongst strategists because some people will say, Don't use the brand archetypes. Like you can get to strategy in [00:25:00] all these different ways, you know?
[00:25:01] Nora DiNuzzo: And some people are like, use the brand archetypes. It's like a short circuit to, and that's how, kind of how I think about it. You know, it's like. This is Carl Jung's, getting back to psychology, Carl Jung's psychological theory that he developed in the, like, 30s or 40s. You know, he's long dead, but like, don't make a brawl around in his grave, like, don't misuse the archetypes, like, use them correctly!
[00:25:20] Nora DiNuzzo: Like, you know, they're, they exist, like, this is like principles of evolution. Human psychology, collective subconscious, like this, the archetype show up in every story throughout time in memoriam, whether it was, you know, an oral narration or written in a book or your favorite show or TV, or I see, you know, um, The stormtrooper behind you, Corey, on your shelf.
[00:25:43] Nora DiNuzzo: Like, you know, Star Wars is a great example of story, right? Heroes and villains. And Yoda is a great example of the sage archetype. Like, you know, Star Wars has like a little bit of all the archetypes represented in it. Cause it's such an epic tale, but it's like when those archetypes show up [00:26:00] and brands and brands use them to great effect, like Disney uses the magician and Nike uses the hero and, you know, You know, somebody like Harley Davidson utilizes the rebel and Mercedes uses the ruler.
[00:26:12] Nora DiNuzzo: It's like they do that for a reason. It's because when the, when those archetypes show up in brands, we instantly recognize them. It's like, Oh, I recognize that. It's like, you know, we recognize the Explorer in Indiana Jones or in Jeep, you know, or in Patagonia. It's like, Oh, I know that I know him. You know, it's like, it's instantly comfortable.
[00:26:31] Nora DiNuzzo: And like most people. outside of our world and psychology don't think about why that is that they recognize characters or relate to characters so strongly or have these affinities in stories. And a lot of it is because it's underpinned by psychology and by the archetypes. So we have a process we take brands through for that.
[00:26:49] Nora DiNuzzo: And it's actually based on this book, uh, and card deck. I never have the cards far from me because I do this work a lot. That's so interesting. I call it brand tarot. It looks like [00:27:00] tarot cards. It's like, read, read my cards. Um, but it's a book called archetypes in branding by Margaret Hartwell. And it's fantastic.
[00:27:08] Nora DiNuzzo: It really like helps brands understand and buy that token agencies. Like take our own medicine, right? If you're doing this for brands, why can't you do it for yourself? And so it was really helpful. Like we did that process for ourselves when we were building our brand. It really informed a lot of our strategy work and like.
[00:27:25] Nora DiNuzzo: It can really, using something that can short circuit like your brand strategy down to like a matter of days or weeks, not months or years. So like use the tools that are already available. Like don't reinvent the wheel. Go with something that's like tried and true. Like you don't have to invest a lot.
[00:27:41] Nora DiNuzzo: Like this book is 33 on Amazon. Like you could get it and like work on this in like a couple of weeks and you'd be in a different spot than you are today.
[00:27:49] Corey Quinn: That's awesome. So once the agency now has a sort of a new narrative and, you know, differentiated point of view and messaging, what's the next step?[00:28:00]
[00:28:00] Eric Brown: Well, it really depends on what they're looking to accomplish. And that's, uh, we've designed a process that we take agencies through and we kind of call it choose your own adventure because Like people, every agency is different and we don't expect a, every agency to need the same process to get where they're going.
[00:28:18] Eric Brown: Yes, there are, are certain things within those first mile strategies that we believe, uh, should be addressed and optimized. Uh, but some, some agencies have done some of that work and, and succeeded at it. Some of some agencies haven't even approached it or thought about it or knew they should think about it.
[00:28:35] Eric Brown: And some agencies have done part of it. And so, um, we have a specific, um, engagement that we do. It's called the clarity workshop. It's two days that takes, uh, takes agencies on day one through, uh, these strategy principles and day two. Um, out of the strategy that we've developed, it informs the tactics that we should focus on.
[00:28:55] Eric Brown: But it's a kind of choose your own adventure model that allows them to say, Hey, these are some of the [00:29:00] things that, uh, we really feel like we need to address now out of that, there are some core, um, some core modules that we have, that we, Uh, we kind of dictate that we do what they're forced people to do.
[00:29:13] Corey Quinn: You're the expert. I would hope so.
[00:29:15] Eric Brown: Yeah. That are mandatory to give us the framework that we need to understand, uh, you know, what we're trying to accomplish. But again, it's a, you know, we have this, these conversations with agencies and, um, You know, what are you looking to accomplish? And obviously through Nour and I's experience of, uh, having been in and around hundreds of agencies, we can kind of get a sense of, uh, you know, what they may need help with.
[00:29:39] Eric Brown: Uh, but oftentimes they have it, they have a decent idea. Like if we're being honest with each other, Like they say, Hey, like, these are things we haven't addressed, or these things are, or things that like, we feel like we haven't nailed. Um, and so that's a great way for us to get started with an agency to, to help them kind of figure some of that stuff out and, you know, and, and then we just, we kind of go from there.
[00:29:58] Corey Quinn: Yeah. That, that two [00:30:00] days sounds like it's a, um, there there's a lot of clarity. You call it, we call it a clarity workshop. I think that that's a, it's a well, well, well named workshop when, when it comes to growth tactics. So you go, you go into strategy and you help create. Um, you know, a more clearly defined brand, you, you go through some, some effort to help the business really get clear on the financials and the, you know, trying to uncover, um, you know, consistent positive revenue growth and whatnot, and you, you, you, you also focus on content and comms.
[00:30:33] Corey Quinn: But then you go back to, or do you go back to sort of growth tactics? Like how, at the end of the day, you've done all this work and they've, they've hired you because they don't have a clear growth strategy. Do you go back into the tactics once you've have all this, this foundation work created?
[00:30:47] Eric Brown: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:30:48] Eric Brown: I mean, yeah, Corey, the reality is, is like, nobody's hiring us just to do this work because like they want to do this work. Everybody's trying to get to more dollars. I mean, like that's, that's, that's what we're [00:31:00] at, but you know, Nora and I feel very strongly. That it has to be founded in strategy because again, If we don't have the strategy, then the tactics are going to fall flat.
[00:31:09] Eric Brown: But the tactics are how we show up. The tactics are how we interface with our ICP, with the stakeholders, with the marketers, with whoever it is. And so again, uh, we don't want to misinform. clients and, you know, they just use it. We're working with by recommending something before we know that it's right for them.
[00:31:29] Eric Brown: You know, we often use the example of, uh, you know, everybody's been an agency where it's like, Hey, everybody's got to write a blog a week or, uh, you know, and it's like, you know, what typically happens is. Everybody in the agency hates the blog. And so the blog, including the CEO, never writes the blog. Um, and, uh, you know, there's situations of, you know, agency CEOs being on a podcast, and they're introverts, and they don't feel comfortable, and it's just painful for everyone.
[00:31:56] Eric Brown: Or it's like, oh, hey, like, you've got to do a [00:32:00] proactive outbound email strategy. And it's like, If, when your brand position is not aligned and your site's terrible and you don't know how to talk about the way you solve problems, you send an email out and then somebody comes, but if they do come back to your site, they don't see themselves in, uh, you know, Nora talks a lot about, we want to, you know, um, we want our, our prospects or ICP to, uh, to be looking in a mirror when they're on our site.
[00:32:23] Eric Brown: They want them to be able to see. Oh, Hey, you're for me, you've got expertise in, in my problem, in my category, you've solved this problem before you understand me. And if that's, if all those things aren't working, then, uh, then those tactics fall flat. And so again, we, we, we do the strategy and it's, I don't say like it's inevitable, but you know, by spending a few hours with an agency, we've got a good sense of who they are and.
[00:32:50] Eric Brown: What they're passionate about. And, you know, I, I use this example a lot. Um, there was an agency that we worked with last year and we were in a room for a couple of days with the three [00:33:00] women that led this agency. And on day one, there was a point when like two of the three women looked physically nauseous.
[00:33:07] Eric Brown: Like we talked about their, um, their growth goal and the number they needed to hit, um, and what it was going to take to get there. And they just looked like. Uh, you know, they wanted to leave the room by the end of day two, when we had clarified what they were passionate about, what their each unique skillsets were, um, and then how that was going to translate into hitting that number.
[00:33:30] Eric Brown: They were excited. Like they were like ready to take on the world. They didn't feel like they were like carrying a weight up a hill. They felt like, Oh, this is something like I actually want to do. And like one of the three women is. Um, this is something that I want to do more of, or this is something I want to be better at.
[00:33:46] Eric Brown: So it was a cool opportunity for her to like take on something. It's like kind of like learning a new language. And so, you know, Corey, that's the place that we want to get with agencies where it's like, yeah, this, this feels natural. These are things that I can do [00:34:00] authentically. Um, that don't feel like a tactic.
[00:34:02] Eric Brown: They feel like me just showing up and that aligning with the types of clients that we're going after the types of work that we want to do. And then it all just feels good. It doesn't feel like you're beating down the door of someone trying to get them like trying to sell them encyclopedias or something.
[00:34:21] Nora DiNuzzo: So what Eric's saying is that I make people want to throw up and Eric makes them jump for joy.
[00:34:28] Corey Quinn: That's why you guys are a good team. You gotta
[00:34:33] Nora DiNuzzo: have strategy and tactics together. One without the other is not very helpful. So yeah, that's why we're a good duo, good ham and egg. You know, I bring the strategy.
[00:34:41] Nora DiNuzzo: He brings the tactical excellence and execution. Cause right. Like that's the two kinds of places people fall down. Like we just don't have a strategy and we don't know what to do for a strategy. I can help with that. And then Eric is a great, you know, manager and quarterback and sort of game maker of like, okay, how do we then [00:35:00] take that strategy and action it and make it real and bring it out into the world?
[00:35:03] Nora DiNuzzo: And like, we talk all the time about how. You know, nobody hires us to produce their podcasts because we're not podcast producers. However, if we've set a strategy, we are going after a pretty significant shared growth goal together for the next 12 months, like in our sort of longer, bigger partnership model with a handful of agencies, we do this with, you know, we'll actually act as their fractional CGO CMO and like, we're the managers of getting all of that done.
[00:35:28] Nora DiNuzzo: So whether they have internal resources that can help support that, or it's external resources that they're budgeting for to support it, it's We kind of are the managers of all of those resources to just get the plan into action, because that's the two problems. We just don't have a strategy at all. Or now that we have this great strategy, who the heck is going to do this?
[00:35:45] Nora DiNuzzo: Like, who's going to oversee this? We're busy. We're pitching. We're working on our clients. We're doing annual planning, you know, all those things about, like, again, working in the business that you're doing, you don't have time to work on the business and you can't figure out how to make time. So like we can help [00:36:00] facilitate that.
[00:36:01] Corey Quinn: And that's, that's definitely a big value add. I was laughing, Eric, what you were saying earlier about like, you know, the. The, the person saying, well, you have to write, everyone has to write blog posts. That was me. Um, at once upon a time where I told my team to, they had to be subject matter experts, but that was short lived.
[00:36:17] Corey Quinn: Did you ever
[00:36:18] Nora DiNuzzo: survey them and ask them who here likes to write? You'd be surprised how few people actually like writing.
[00:36:26] Corey Quinn: Yeah, no, we, we, um, there was a spreadsheet, but it was, it was more prescriptive. There was a spreadsheet. It was definitely the wrong way to do it. It was the wrong way to do it all started
[00:36:33] Eric Brown: with a spreadsheet.
[00:36:35] Eric Brown: Ha ha ha.
[00:36:36] Corey Quinn: Well listen guys, I, I've really enjoyed, uh, getting to know you both and hearing more about the project. Just how, uh, you know, how you approach, uh, agency growth strategy first, always. And I'm a big proponent of that. So I love, I love all of this. What would be sort of your parting advice for that agency owner who, you know, as you were saying earlier on, who doesn't have a clear growth strategy, who [00:37:00] doesn't have consistent growth, what's the first thing or what's a small thing that they can do to make an impact in that?
[00:37:05] Eric Brown: I think that it's wise to always. Talk to somebody outside of your four walls and you know, that's not necessarily Nora and I, maybe it's you, maybe it's not you, Corey, whoever you're comfortable with. It's like, you know, kind of going to a doctor that, uh, that you, that aligns with your, uh, your principles and the things that you care about.
[00:37:24] Eric Brown: Have a conversation with an expert, somebody that, that knows how to, yeah. Um, observe from the outside in and has solved these problems before. Because again, there's, there's a difference between coaches and I did like not all coaches, but somebody that's just a coach that's kind of never been in the business, uh, or, or kind of in that field, but somebody that's, that's been there and done that.
[00:37:44] Eric Brown: I think there's, um, there's real value to having had executed, uh, on, on the principles that you're talking about. And so I think this really important, uh, just to talk to somebody and say, Hey, These are some of the things that we're facing. These are some of the things that we're thinking about. These are the [00:38:00] things that like, we want to be better at.
[00:38:02] Eric Brown: Can, can you give me some, uh, some real feedback, some real honest feedback? And, um, that's a, a good kind of initial measurement point of, uh, understanding where you are and some of the things that, uh, that you should shore up, we have, uh, a kind of a diagnostic that we take agencies through Is related to and kind of goes beyond the, those, those first mile strategies.
[00:38:27] Eric Brown: Uh, but it's an objective way to measure, uh, where an agency is in relation to the things that they want to accomplish and having some, uh, some way to do that. It doesn't have to be a scorecard or a diagnostic or an audit. Uh, but somebody that has been around, uh, agencies and has helped them grow and has seen the challenges that you're facing, uh, is a great reference point.
[00:38:49] Nora DiNuzzo: Yeah. And I think the, uh, the doctor or medical analogy is apt in this case because, you know, you shouldn't web MD yourself. We all know that, right? Like we're not [00:39:00] qualified to like, you know, diagnose ourselves. So you want to go to a doctor who knows what they're doing. You want to go to an expert, but also you want to, you know, That person to diagnose before they prescribe.
[00:39:10] Nora DiNuzzo: Like if I walked into my doctor with a headache and they started cutting my head open, I'd be pretty upset about that. You know, like maybe I just needed Tylenol. So like, just because, you know, we're working on agency growth and challenges, it doesn't mean that every agency is a dumpster fire. I mean, like plenty of agencies we talked to have already been growing.
[00:39:27] Nora DiNuzzo: They've been doing a good job. Now they're just trying to figure out the ceiling, like how up is up? Like what's the point of diminishing returns and like, Could I double this, triple this, quadruple this? You know, I always laugh about this whole 10 X your business thing. Like, that's not a thing. And usually in services, like if you don't have IP and you don't have software or product, you're probably not going to 10 X, but I have been places that have doubled or tripled in a short amount of time.
[00:39:49] Nora DiNuzzo: And like, that makes you look really attractive for acquisition. If you can go from five to 10 million plus, like now you can sell your business if, and when you want to, you know, typically speaking. [00:40:00] So yeah, I think really just. To Eric's point, getting a proper diagnosis on what's going on. If you know, something's wrong and you can't figure it out, then yeah, just talk to someone, see if you can get some help.
[00:40:09] Corey Quinn: Beautiful. Great advice. Uh, where can people reach out to you to, um, strike up a conversation?
[00:40:16] Eric Brown: Well, you will find Nora on LinkedIn. Uh, she was recently dubbed the LinkedIn lady. Uh, so, uh, at Nora Denuso on LinkedIn and. Uh, of course you can find us on our website, uh, blood, sweat and tears. co. The and is spelled out.
[00:40:32] Eric Brown: And so those are, those are the places that we show up and, you know, we're, uh, we're typically visiting agencies around the country and every time we're there, we do a little happy hour. So. Uh, tune into our, uh, our LinkedIn and, you know, we'll let you know where we're going to be. And, uh, if there's an opportunity to, to get together with other industry folks and, and have a drink, then, uh, we would love, love for you to show up.
[00:40:55] Corey Quinn: Fantastic. Well, thank you both for coming on. It's been really a great interview. Thank you so much [00:41:00] for having us Corey. Of course. That's it for today. I'm Corey Quinn, and I hope you join me again next time on the deep specialization podcast. If you received value from the show, please go to apple podcasts and leave us a review.
[00:41:13] Corey Quinn: Thanks. And we'll see you soon.
