DS_Jon Tsourakis_Full Interview_Video_Podcast_Edited_v1
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[00:00:13] Corey Quinn: Today I'm joined by the owner of Digital Mastermind, John Tsourakis. Welcome, John.
[00:00:19] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Cory, thank you so much for having me, man.
[00:00:21] Corey Quinn: I'm super excited for our conversation. You run a mastermind group called the Digital Mastermind. You're also an agency [00:00:30] owner, so you're deeply immersed in the agency world. So I can't wait for our conversation today.
[00:00:36] Corey Quinn: Let's kick off things by, um, Would you mind sharing a little bit about, uh, digital Mastermind? What, you know, what it is, who's it for, and, uh, what it's all about?
[00:00:46] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Yeah, it's a mastermind group that's been around for over 10 years and uh, there's close to 100 members and it's peer to peer. So, it's agencies sharing from their [00:01:00] mistakes and their wins and providing perspective to one another. We have bi weekly calls. We keep in touch via Slack as well. And then we have a really gnarly yearly meetup where we bring in experts, uh, like yourself.
[00:01:14] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Um, and then there's also all the agencies that are giving presentations based on what's working in their agencies and what's not. It's phenomenal. And we all share breakfast, lunch, and dinner over two and a half days. It's really cool.
[00:01:26] Corey Quinn: Oh, that's awesome. What was happening 11 [00:01:30] years ago in your world that caused you to realize that, hey, I'd like to launch this, this experience for agency owners?
[00:01:37] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: So a friend of mine actually started it. And he, uh, he just, he sent out some books to some, some agencies that, , he, , wanted to all get together. So we got together and it was just a, it was a yearly meetup. It was a yearly meetup for, for years. And, um, he handed it over to another gentleman that, uh, ran it for a short time.
[00:01:57] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: And he's like, I can't, I can't stand this. And [00:02:00] so he handed it over , to me. And then, um, we changed it where we, brought it more, more interactive. So we created a Slack channel and we also, uh, started doing bi weekly calls and then also other calls that are very tactical when it comes to things like SEO or page search or EOS.
[00:02:19] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: There's a lot of members in there that are EOS, project management, where these, um, uh, others bring in their team. So we have, Essentially 70 agency owners, but they also have their teams in there. So [00:02:30] there's a lot of peer to peer training that's, that's going. So our philosophy is all boats rise and bring in the best of the best for, for webinars, , in other trainings that, can really help out, man.
[00:02:40] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: It's, it's, it's immense. I met my business partner in there. Um, there's a lot of agencies that have merged and sold and just, just a lot of positive activity that just keeps spreading.
[00:02:48] Corey Quinn: When did you, at what point did you get involved in this to kind of run it?
[00:02:52] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: It was 2018.
[00:02:54] Corey Quinn: Okay. So you're on your, uh, sixth year this year to the [00:03:00] quick math. Yeah. Happy birthday. That's awesome. And so before that, you were an agency owner. I believe you're still an agency owner. Is that correct?
[00:03:08] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: That's correct.
[00:03:09] Corey Quinn: And so you were you in the group when, when, um, at that point in 2018, when you decided to take over or were you, were you on the outside?
[00:03:16] Corey Quinn: Okay. So you've been a part of it for a while.
[00:03:19] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Yeah. But a part of it's, yeah, since, uh, since the beginning and, uh, yeah. So been a part of the full evolution. Yeah. I've owned an agency since 2009. So, um, it was really cool [00:03:30] as getting into a group where with other peers that it's not dogmatically led by one person where it's, Hey, this has to be the way I'm one of those people.
[00:03:40] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: It's going to be a very contrarian thinker. Right? Where you, you hear a concept, you're like, I don't know, that doesn't, that doesn't fit me. Or you hear somebody that has all of these ideas, we don't have to take them all on, you can treat it like a buffet. I think that's something that's very powerful in the group.
[00:03:53] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: So you get all these like little snippets and things where you get to craft your own fingerprint, which is your business.
[00:03:58] Corey Quinn: Sure. That's [00:04:00] awesome. , There's a saying, you know, the, the, the sage from the stage, there's no sage up there trying to, you know, get everyone to, to drink the Kool Aid. I think that's, that's really cool. What type of agency, uh, What size typically, does this mastermind attract?
[00:04:15] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: , there's a few that are, uh, hovering around a million. I'd say most of them are between two to 5 million. And then the largest I'd say is around 70 million.
[00:04:24] Corey Quinn: And what is happening in a agency founders world that causes them to [00:04:30] say, Hey, you know, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta find a group that can help me kind of get to the next level. Like what, what is typically the challenge that they're trying to solve?
[00:04:37] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: I think they, they want more perspective, right? And the way I look at this, cause I've seen pods and some of these other, other groups were like, all right, we're just going to lump all the, the larger agencies into one. We're going to take all the smaller agencies and do another. And I think there's a, there's a lot of credence to that.
[00:04:53] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: But on the flip side of that. They're missing a really valid point. I think that valid point is the smaller agencies are going to [00:05:00] take on immensely more risks. They're going to try things because in some cases they're addicted to shiny things. Well, those shiny things are typically tools and tactics and all these new things that they're going to bring to the group, whereas the, the other agency is, it's a larger ship, they can't steer it nearly as quickly.
[00:05:16] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: So when you blend that together, it's, it's fantastic. So you'll have some of these larger agencies sitting there while somebody is pitching, what's working in their agency. And it's, and it's really small and just seeing them light up and like, whoa, that is really [00:05:30] cool because they're continually trying all these new things and they're, they have the ability to fail faster and why they can take on risky things.
[00:05:37] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Yeah. That innovation, they can take on those riskier things, but at the end of the day, their loss is immensely less. Because, you know, they, they have fewer, uh, fewer dollars to lose.
[00:05:48] Corey Quinn: that's right. That's right. They're further off. They're closer to the ground. It actually kind of reminds me of, I've, I've heard the similar situation where you have these large brands. like consumer brands that have [00:06:00] an internal agency, but they actually hire third party agencies because the third party agencies are much more nimble and much more cutting edge, right?
[00:06:08] Corey Quinn: TikTok and all these emerging brands and platforms and so on and so forth that they, they have no way of being able to, um, know what the, what the, the latest, latest trend is. So they, they hire these other sort of external, uh, specialists.
[00:06:21] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Yeah. Then they're just too far from it. And at the end of the day, the, the expense of trying to even implement those, uh, in your own agency, it's, it's not [00:06:30] smart if you're process driven and you're, and you're really focused on a specific vertical or specialty.
[00:06:34] Corey Quinn: So now with 70 agency owners in the group, probably more over time, um, you've probably seen a lot of sort of the, the different challenges that, that agencies face. What are some, what are some of the big kind of, if you were to kind of think about them from a 10, 000 foot view, what are some of the major challenges that agencies face as they're growing through these different milestones?
[00:06:56] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: One is just recruitment, right? And [00:07:00] I think it's, it's not just a basic thing of, Hey, I need to hire people. It's really getting solid talent and people that are going to fit with your culture and the way that you do whatever it is that you do. And you'll see, and I'm sure you've heard this from others where people go, it's almost like getting, uh, uh, investment for, for an idea.
[00:07:23] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: You start with like your friends and family, right? All right. People will hire their friends and their family. And then, uh, and then they go [00:07:30] to this, this other ring where, um, you know, all right, there, there, there's a little bit better talent as you keep scaling up. And the other thing too, is Some agencies will hit a ceiling and they feel like they can't grow based on delivering their best work and that's where we highly recommend finding partners to do that work and figuring out a model so you can work with other A players and those A players don't necessarily have to be within your agency.
[00:07:52] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: So I'd say recruitment, is one of them. I'd say the other is actually something that's along the lines of what you do. It's selecting a [00:08:00] niche, whether that's a vertical or a specialty. Most, some of the most successful agencies, the most profitable, have, have done that, have had a niche focus. and then, I would say the other is just really getting an understanding of their, their profitability.
[00:08:11] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: I think too many people will try I hate putting it this way, but I don't know of another way to put it in the client, um, relationship where they're almost like the abused spouse in that relationship. And they're actually not making the profitability that they deserve and just understanding the worth and the value of their agency so they can actually get, the dollars that they [00:08:30] deserve.
[00:08:30] Corey Quinn: that's great. I'd love to break these down a little bit further. Um, when it comes to recruiting, finding solid talent, what are some best practices that you've seen some agencies take, before maybe they go and partner out, maybe like, how do they, how do they bring and source in like amazing talent?
[00:08:45] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: I think one is getting a clear understanding of what it is that they want and how it's going to fit in. So scorecards, personality tests, uh, skills tests. I think those are some, some really great tools that, that can be used building a, building a [00:09:00] recruiting program, uh, internally.
[00:09:01] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: So they can either hire, staff internally where they can recruit, or, doing campaigns where they're looking for talent. I think too many people would just put up a job ad and they're, they're just going to, to wait. I think you really have to be out either a networking, having somebody doing that or be literally calling on people that you want to, to work for your agency.
[00:09:21] Corey Quinn: I'm sure a lot of founders listening to this right now is saying, great, John, I've one, one more thing for, I have to go out and do. So
[00:09:27] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Yeah,
[00:09:28] Corey Quinn: is the, who's the right person to do this [00:09:30] in the agency?
[00:09:30] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: I love seeing it when it's at a founder level because it has gravitas. It's, um, it's something that I do, as well as my business partner where, okay, we want to find this role. What, , a few things that we'll do, um, are we're going to reach out to our network. Hey, do you know somebody that's solid that's going to, to, to fit into this?
[00:09:47] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: And that's another great component of having a peer group. and then the other is I'm going to look for somebody that's doing really great work and I'm just going to start having conversations with them. And I'm always doing, I'm continually doing, but if those people can't do it, then yeah, of course you're going to [00:10:00] pass it to somebody else.
[00:10:00] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Some other agencies have hired internal recruiters, um, which is something that I've seen, but I haven't necessarily experienced firsthand and within, within my own agency. And they've had great success doing that.
[00:10:10] Corey Quinn: Yeah, my last company, we, we were at one point over a thousand employees and we, I think we had a hiring team of three that were just, that, that was their full time gig. And that was obviously a much bigger scale. , But yeah, I've seen that work out really well. when it comes to selecting a niche, like what are, what are some things you're seeing agencies do well in that [00:10:30] process?
[00:10:30] Corey Quinn: And maybe some, some areas where they get caught up.
[00:10:32] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: what I'm seeing done well is where people have done specific work for a, within a vertical or it might even be their specialty and, uh, they re, they, they, they step into it. So they begin marketing to that space and then it gets a little bit of traction and then they begin moving in that.
[00:10:50] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: And then they do an overall brand, communication that says, Hey. We do doggy daycare centers, or we do, uh, fill it in. On the [00:11:00] flip side of that, I've seen this tragically fail where somebody had made that overhaul, turned away business because we're the new, I'm kind of calling out somebody here, but I'm not gonna mention their name.
[00:11:12] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: We're the e commerce business for outdoor sporting companies. Right. And just not knowing enough about that space and realizing what, you know, what's actually the, the market segment in there and then watching their agency, you know, deteriorate before they had to pivot and go back to what it is that they were [00:11:30] doing before.
[00:11:31] Corey Quinn: So that I'm assuming based on how you shared that they made the decision too quickly without fully understanding what they were signing up for.
[00:11:40] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Totally, yeah, and there's fun spaces, and you have to be very careful with fun spaces, right? So, there's a reason that people don't get paid well at zoos and theme parks. It's because it's a fun place to work,
[00:11:51] Corey Quinn: Or ESPN, people who work for, you know, these places, they make no, nothing.
[00:11:56] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Yeah, yeah,
[00:11:58] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: um Yeah, because [00:12:00] there are so many other people vying for that, that the supply and the demand, it's just, yeah, the numbers don't make sense.
[00:12:06] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: And unfortunately that's what ended up happening to that agency.
[00:12:08] Corey Quinn: That's interesting. And then when it comes to profitability, what are some of the stumbling blocks that agencies come across?
[00:12:16] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: First off, they don't even know what it is. So,
[00:12:20] Corey Quinn: How, so how did that all interrupt you here? So how do you define profitability? Like what is, what is, what are they, what should they be looking for?
[00:12:27] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Uh, margin. And I mean, your [00:12:30] real margin. Okay. What is your net net? What are you actually making as a business when everything is all paid, said, and done? Right. So what is your true net net? And it starts on, on the high level. Right. So if you have, whether it's a labor hour or you're doing value based pricing, you have to understand, what the margin for that agency is going to be.
[00:12:50] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: So once you know that on a high level, and then you can dig in on whether it's a specific service or on the overall account. So when you understand that profitability, you [00:13:00] can run a substantially, more healthy agency.
[00:13:03] Corey Quinn: Beautiful.
[00:13:03] [00:13:30] [00:14:00]
[00:14:21] Corey Quinn: . what would you say about the challenges about running a, an agency where, gosh, you know, maybe there's [00:14:30] a, maybe there's a person who is valuable in some respects, but maybe toxic at the same time from a culture perspective.
[00:14:36] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Hmm.
[00:14:37] Corey Quinn: How does, how, how do you handle these things? Cause I think it happens a lot.
[00:14:41] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: It does. You, unfortunately, you know, I've seen some people make the mistake of treating it like a, like a band aid where you just like rip it off and you just completely get rid of that person. But what happens is you can have account loss. You can have, culture issues because, you know, whether they're toxic, it doesn't mean that necessarily [00:15:00] everybody.
[00:15:00] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: at the agency. You felt that. So I think they, you have to be very surgical in the way that you remove that type of person from your agency. So first off, that person does have to go if you can't correct it. And what I look at is like toxic. It's, it's toxic, right? It is uncorrectable, right? Um, you, you, you poured bleach into the bacon, all right?
[00:15:19] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: We're not eating the bacon. but in, in removing that person, yeah, you, you have to be. Very thorough and conscientious in the way that it's done. And I think the best way to do it too. is [00:15:30] not burning that bridge with that person, in some cases, I've seen other agencies take a while to do this.
[00:15:35] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: They've removed their power slow, slower and slower, and then they eventually, will extract that person out of the agency.
[00:15:41] Corey Quinn: Yeah, such a delicate, uh, delicate topic, especially if they're on the sales side. I've, I've, I've experienced this where, you have a, a highly producing salesperson which is great, but then there's all this collateral damage and being able to balance the, the impact to the revenue and culture and all those things.
[00:15:58] Corey Quinn: It definitely becomes [00:16:00] much, like you said, very surgical,
[00:16:01] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Yeah, because it's, it's really jarring. So with this person shows up on, you know, client calls for their accounts, or even if it's a, it's an account manager and people have worked with that person for a long time, but internally they're a Tasmanian devil just creating tornadoes. You don't want to.
[00:16:18] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Badmouth that person to the client. So you delicately have to, uh, approach it and it's never easy for anybody, but yeah, I mean, there's an agency listening to this and they're dealing with that problem. I'm more than [00:16:30] happy to help them out in any way.
[00:16:31] Corey Quinn: Yeah, I imagine what . The digital mastermind could be a good place for them to get some support and perspective as well.
[00:16:37] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: For sure. Yeah. It's like a victim's group.
[00:16:39] Corey Quinn: Yeah. growing a business is rough, man. let me ask about your agency. Can you tell us a little bit about the agency you run and, and, uh, the type of services you do and who you serve
[00:16:50] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Yeah. Uh, agency is OYOVA, uh, TVOV, uh, uh, about 30 and we work with. Typically companies between 2 [00:17:00] million and 50 million. We offer a lot of web development. It's about 60, 60 percent of our revenue. And the other is about 40%. And in that we typically will build or take over a website. We optimize it. And then we begin running marketing campaigns for them.
[00:17:18] Corey Quinn: besides the revenue or there are other characteristics that, that make up a, an ideal client for you?
[00:17:23] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Ideal clients are usually good people that like to pay on time.
[00:17:27] Corey Quinn: Okay.
[00:17:29] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Yeah. [00:17:30] Other than that, uh, from a vertical perspective, um, we, we do a fair amount in, , education, legal membership companies. And, um, and then the other is, uh, it runs the gamut. So whether it's SaaS or e commerce or, or a lot of these others, I think one of our differentiators, uh, is we have a very deep tech bench.
[00:17:49] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: so in that we can do things at a rapid level, whether it's on the analytics side or, uh, on the paid, uh, ad side or web [00:18:00] and app development that we see, um, some others get done. That will stumble on. Yeah,
[00:18:05] Corey Quinn: when
[00:18:05] Corey Quinn: did you start? When did you start the agency?
[00:18:08] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: 2009. So my business partner and I both started two agencies in 2009. the agency I had, um, was more on the more marketing focused, all digital and, uh, he started a, a web development agency.
[00:18:19] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: And then, , we met through digital mastermind. We just, you know, always talked about merging. And then the economy was roaring in 2018 and we just decided to. go ahead and put these two things [00:18:30] together.
[00:18:30] Corey Quinn: That's awesome. And, , , how has the agency grown over the, over the, let's see, since 2009 to 2024, what are some of the major milestones, the major sort of 10 X jumps in your, in your agency business?
[00:18:41] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: I think, uh, our inbound leads and just completely skyrocket. We, we've won some awards like Inc 5000, a bunch of awards on clutch. Um, but we, we figured out our outbound strategy. We figured out, uh, our inbound strategy and we, we have. A really good lead flow. And I'm [00:19:00] knocking on wood, man, any salesperson superstitious.
[00:19:02] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: I mean, that's my primary role on,
[00:19:04] Corey Quinn: Yeah. Keep it going.
[00:19:06] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: but I think that's what it is. And it's just really drilling down at the things, you know, uh, that the customers that would want to work with you have to see before they work with you. And I believe we have that dialed in and then also on that, a really solid sales process, something that is just trial and error where we can rapidly quote.
[00:19:25] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: and WinBusiness.
[00:19:25] Corey Quinn: So where, where did most of your inbounds come from?
[00:19:28] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: most of it's through, uh, SEO. [00:19:30] Um, so we get a lot of it through SEO. And then, um, the other is directories. So we get a lot through, uh, DesignRush, Clutch. and I want to say there's two others that aren't nearly as, uh, driving, but still drive good leads.
[00:19:44] Corey Quinn: Nice. And what about outbound? You mentioned you've got some outbound going.
[00:19:47] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Cold email, man.
[00:19:49] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: I do a lot of cold email.
[00:19:50] Corey Quinn: It works.
[00:19:52] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Yeah.
[00:19:52] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: I send anywhere from, uh, 10 to 20, 000 emails a month, um, up there. And, uh, yeah, you get good leads. And [00:20:00] that's the other thing too, dialing that in, right? Because when you first start that, I didn't really have it dialed in for like a year. It was just spending lots of time, lots of money, figuring out what's working, what's not, creating pattern interrupts and all of these different little tactics.
[00:20:12] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: And it, uh, it's now, uh, one of our strongest lead channels.
[00:20:17] Corey Quinn: What's more important, uh, frequency or the content of the email?
[00:20:21] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: I think it's, I think it's content by far. People are just bombarded with, I hope this email finds you well,
[00:20:29] Corey Quinn: Yeah. [00:20:30]
[00:20:30] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Or, or now that AI, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, or now that AI is in there, I can just sniff an AI email out from like a mile
[00:20:39] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: away. It's, Yeah.
[00:20:40] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: we're, we're helping all these other businesses in St.
[00:20:43] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Petersburg, Florida. I'm like, okay, yeah. All right. I, I think it's really just. Having something that fits your personality, right? That's very important to your own personal brand as well as your company's brand. That's going to get it into somebody's inbox, is going to catch their attention, uh, potentially entertain them [00:21:00] in some way and convince them to, uh, to have a call with you.
[00:21:03] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: And
[00:21:03] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: it, it takes a lot of work to get those right.
[00:21:05] Corey Quinn: yeah, no, entertaining is also very hard. Like you get the tone, right?
[00:21:09] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Yeah,
[00:21:10] Corey Quinn: it's hard to get that right. and then, so you said mentioned inbound outbound. What was the third one?
[00:21:16] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Sales process.
[00:21:16] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Sorry.
[00:21:17] Corey Quinn: process, you've got it dialed in. So what is, what is the sales process? Is that product has sale, you know, it's all the prices on the website or do you do fully bespoke or somewhere in between?
[00:21:25] Corey Quinn: How does that work?
[00:21:26] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: So yeah, it's usually, it's usually fully bespoke. So we have a team selling [00:21:30] approach, right? So qualification call, band, budget, uh, authority, need timing that. All right. Then we get them on a call with the team. And then on that call, we're going to figure out everything within 30 minutes of what has to happen.
[00:21:41] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: And we're really good at getting a budget. So I'm sure there's a lot of agencies on it, on, uh, that are listening that probably struggle with that, but there, there, there's a lot of techniques on, on how to get that budget. Which I'm happy to go into, and I'm
[00:21:51] Corey Quinn: Yeah, I'm
[00:21:52] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: good ones. And then, um, from there, all we do is, put together a quick spreadsheet.
[00:21:58] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: It's just, all right, we're going to do an outline. [00:22:00] That's that outline is also a strategy in some sense, but we're just going to talk about all the things that need to get done. It's not going to be pretty. If you approve that, then we're going to go into whatever that work is next.
[00:22:09] Corey Quinn: that that's on the sales call, like a little like building this sort of outline together. Is that how it
[00:22:14] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: exactly. Yep. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And we're literally, we were timing materials. We've tried value based pricing and some, some aspects that really didn't fit our model. And then in there, they can make a decision to move forward or not. And then we'll give them a proposal. [00:22:30] Um, but we don't give a proposal until we get that verbal net.
[00:22:32] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: They're ready to move forward. Cause we're not in the business of creating proposals.
[00:22:35] Corey Quinn: that's super interesting. So it sounds like you're, I imagine during that sales conversation, there's value being transferred, right? The fact that you're helping to outline this in real time, they're, they're, they're providing feedback and input that's value,
[00:22:48] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Totally. Yeah. It's all in
[00:22:49] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: the questions you're asking, right? So if you're asking very insightful questions. That's going to move them because you're continually challenging whether [00:23:00] it's what they know or what they don't know. And then also, there's so many tools that you can look at to really just dig into those right on the spot.
[00:23:07] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: And when they can see that transparency and the way that you do it at a very rapid rate, you earn a lot of trust.
[00:23:13] Corey Quinn: tell us about the, the secrets behind getting the budget.
[00:23:16] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: there's a number of techniques, right? So, in there, tell them the range of the prices that you work with. Right? So, um, uh, one of the things that I like to do is say, Hey, do you have a budget? And then I can tell usually before they're going to, where they're going to [00:23:30] answer. Actually, don't answer that yet.
[00:23:31] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: I want to let you know that, uh, you know, some of our clients are spending over, uh, 150, 000 a month and some are spending as little as 2, 000 a month. Where do you think you fall within that?
[00:23:41] Corey Quinn: give
[00:23:45] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: to tell you no or they may have been telling you yes and if they're going to tell you yes, I'm like, look, I got 23, 000 to spend this month.
[00:23:50] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: That's all I can do. so that's one technique. the other is, um, where you just start calling out numbers. Uh, are we looking at like a 5, 000 budget per month or 10, 000? Well, people are [00:24:00] just instantly wanting to fill in the blank and answer that question. Um, so they're going to start there. And then when you actually get someone that is saying, Hey, um, uh, no, I don't have a budget.
[00:24:10] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: The best thing to do there is, um, to just start throwing out numbers again, saying, all right, like, what are we looking at here? Like you don't have a budget, but if I want, I want you to be uncomfortable. Are we talking, go high, go high. Are we talking about like something like a million dollars this month?
[00:24:24] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Is that where you're looking to spend? And they're like, no, and they'll usually fill in the blank. If they don't start taking the numbers back and somebody [00:24:30] will
[00:24:30] Corey Quinn: Right. it's funny. I used to, when I was in sales, I worked at an agency selling enterprise level deals, PPC and SEO for big brands. And we used Bant. And I remember, remember those type of conversations. It's been a while, but I, I remember, , you know, getting the budget was, was a qualifier.
[00:24:46] Corey Quinn: So you had to get it.
[00:24:47] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Yeah. You don't want to move forward without it because you're going to do yourself a disservice. So I highly recommend if somebody does not have that in their process to just make that, because then you're going to get into the proposal business. And I heard
[00:24:57] Corey Quinn: Right. Especially because it sounds like [00:25:00] your approach is more on the bespoke side where you're uncovering their specific situation and you're mapping a solution to, to help them, based on that situation. So, in 2009, was it when you were, when you launched, I imagine it was just yourself or just a small team.
[00:25:13] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Yeah. It was a small team. Yeah. It was, uh, it was all, uh, freelancers, um, to start with. And then, and then I got an office cause I thought I really needed one. And I like, I like an office cause I like a change of state. And then, um, I, I remember we, we had this attorney client he said, Hey, uh, he works in [00:25:30] employment law.
[00:25:30] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: He's like, Hey, are all these like, uh, full time FTEs? Uh, I was like, no, actually they're, they're all contractors. He said, um, do you require them to like come in? I was like, yeah, this is an office that I
[00:25:40] Corey Quinn: He's like, no, they're employees.
[00:25:42] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Yeah. He's like, dude, these are employees. He's like, you're going to get in big trouble, man. He's like, this is what I do.
[00:25:47] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: He's like, you're going to learn my business and you're going to realize you can't do this. I was like, Oh, all right. It was just, I didn't know, man.
[00:25:53] Corey Quinn: Right, You know, just an entrepreneur, right?
[00:25:55] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: yeah, destroyed my profitability, uh, within a week of, you know, [00:26:00] turning everybody that wanted to be a full time employee.
[00:26:03] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: And, uh, yeah. And then, uh, just kept going from there.
[00:26:06] Corey Quinn: So you have this small team, contractors, then employees, subset of them. Um, I imagine you lead the team differently today than you did back in 2009. You've learned some things along the way. What are some of the big milestones that you've encountered as far as your ability to lead others?
[00:26:23] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Autonomy is more important than tasking out every hour of the day for one of your employees. [00:26:30] If you hire smart people and you give them the, Hey, this is what needs to happen. They typically will figure it out.
[00:26:35] Corey Quinn: Yeah, that's a big one. I, I tend to be the same way when I had a team. I had a team of 30 and I would give them a very clear expectation. It was measurable. It would, and they'd know when we would measure and we'd meet weekly. But beyond that, like they're professionals. They know that they were hired to do a job.
[00:26:52] Corey Quinn: They have a skill or an aptitude. I don't need to get in their business and figure out, figure out for them how they're going to get it done. They just need to get it [00:27:00] done.
[00:27:00] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Totally. And you don't want them to atrophy. If you bring in somebody that's exceptional and then you just start, Hey, this is when you're gonna eat lunch and this is the things that you need to do today. You're weakening your team by doing that.
[00:27:12] Corey Quinn: That's awesome. What would be your parting advice for, particularly for agency owners who are struggling with scaling?
[00:27:18] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Struggling with scaling. I mean there's, there's, there's a lot of things. Uh, one, one thing, I recommend to, to people is getting comfortable, being uncomfortable. it's some of the best advice I ever got from an agency owner that that went out of [00:27:30] business. And, uh, when I asked him why he said we got complacent, we got, we got comfortable, he said, so get comfortable getting uncomfortable.
[00:27:38] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: So keep stretching. And then in that there's a lot of talk about work life balance and all those things, and it's not necessarily to, to interrupt that it's to just really understand that you have to keep growing as, as a person, Your company will always be a reflection of that.
[00:27:52] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: and then, uh, another thing that, that I recommended scaling is. niche I think that's, that's a big [00:28:00] mistake that we made early on is we were trying to be all things to, to everyone. And you have to understand what you're really good at. And if you can understand what you're really good at and who you work really well with in doing that thing, you can be wildly successful and you'll win more business, you'll have a higher profit margin.
[00:28:16] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: it can be fantastic. granted, there's always downsides.
[00:28:19] Corey Quinn: And there's always, there's always downsides. Always the grass is always greener and there's no perfect uh, business model for sure. Got it. So, Don't be complacent. Get comfortable with being uncomfortable and choose a [00:28:30] niche to lean into to help you to scale and improve profitability and in valuation.
[00:28:34] Corey Quinn: I've seen agencies that are focused on a vertical, get better valuations as well. So
[00:28:39] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: point,
[00:28:40] Corey Quinn: what's your motivation, John?
[00:28:41] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: man. I love people. And I can tell you like why I really got into this. I remember I was working for this other agency. And then you remember in like 2008, like 2009, that's when the downturn happened right in the market. My family, uh, had a construction company. and, One of their biggest issues [00:29:00] is they didn't have good marketing and they didn't have a brand, they essentially lost everything, for the most part. And, uh, they're doing okay now. But what I realized there is, I wanted to help small companies in the In small companies like my parents company. And I wanted to create jobs. Because literally my parents were looking for jobs at that time.
[00:29:17] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: that's what I did when I first started. We helped a lot of like little mom and pops. We don't work with too many anymore, but one of the cool things, um, and it's a question we still ask our clients is, um, if we do this initiative and it reaches that goal, let's [00:29:30] say that you wanted to put, you know, three, 4 million on top line revenue, how many jobs will I create?
[00:29:34] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: And that's one of the things I love to do most. I don't want to just save somebody a bunch of money, right? I'm not a finance guy and you know, uh, that that's not my role. I love to create jobs. Because work gives purpose. And when you can do that, because there's nothing sadder than when somebody doesn't.
[00:29:49] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: So my love for people and the ability to create jobs in what I do by, you know, uh, essentially driving revenue numbers and a lot of our marketing initiatives. is something [00:30:00] that, you know, continues to motivate me.
[00:30:02] Corey Quinn: That's beautiful. That's awesome. where could people reach out to you and to maybe learn more about the digital mastermind? I know you have a summit coming up in September. How could they, um, find you?
[00:30:12] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: They can, uh, find me on LinkedIn. So, uh, I have a very uncommon last name, but that's one way to do it, that Corey loves to pronounce. And, uh, the other, you can just shoot me an email, johnjohnatdigitalmastermind. com. Connect with me on LinkedIn. Like I said, I love people. I love helping people. and, check out [00:30:30] digitalmastermind.
[00:30:30] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: com fill out an application. If you want to join, you can also check out some, some stuff there about the event. And, yeah, oh man, appreciate your time today. And, uh, yeah, love to talk with anybody that, uh, wants to have a conversation.
[00:30:41] Corey Quinn: Beautiful. Well, your love for helping others was definitely evident today. So thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom and your experience with us.
[00:30:49] CQ JT EP JT SYNC: Oh man. Thanks for having me. This was a, this was a blast. Really appreciate it, Corey. [00:31:00]
