Vertical Go to Market | Allan Dib | Successwise | Podcast Interview
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[00:00:00] Corey Quinn: Welcome to the Vertical Go To Market Podcast, where you'll discover new opportunities to grow your business from seven figures to eight from the world's most successful agency and B2B SaaS executives. I'm your host, Corey Quinn. Let's jump into the show. Today, I'm joined by the best selling author of the OnePage Marketing Plan and the founder of Successwise, Alan Dib.
[00:00:25] Corey Quinn: Welcome, Alan.
[00:00:26] Allan Dib: Hey, Corey,
[00:00:27] Corey Quinn: pleasure to be on. I'm super excited [00:00:30] for our conversation and I've had the opportunity to read through your book and I was sort of dog earing and underlining things. You know, I'm a, I've been a marketer for a while, but I, I'm a student of marketing and I'm always learning. And so I'm super excited to bring you onto the show and to.
[00:00:46] Corey Quinn: You know, give the audience an opportunity to learn some of the wisdom that you've picked up along the way. A little bit about your book is that the one page marketing plan, it's been called the Business Bible and Game Changer, uh, The Huffington Post [00:01:00] named it one of the, uh, the 10 best marketing books for small business owners and universities across America use it as a modern day textbook.
[00:01:09] Corey Quinn: So I'd love to learn more about this book. The one page marketing plan. And I know you have a new book coming out as well, which we can talk about, uh, as much or as little as you'd like.
[00:01:19] Allan Dib: Sure. Sounds great
[00:01:20] Corey Quinn: to me. So tell us about the one page marketing plan. What's this book, who's it for and what's included.
[00:01:26] Allan Dib: So the one page marketing plan is a framework [00:01:30] that I designed and it was a framework long before it ever was a book. When I started consulting to clients, naturally, one of the first things I wanted them to do is. Put together a marketing plan and I got a lot of pushback, too hard, too difficult, need to hire a consultant, don't know where to start, don't know what to do, all of this sort of stuff.
[00:01:47] Allan Dib: So I created a simple framework, which is a one page marketing plan canvas. And if, um, if you can visualize a single page with essentially split up into a grid of nine blocks. And [00:02:00] so there's three groups of three, there's three at the top, three in the middle, three, three at the bottom. And it's really just designed, there it is.
[00:02:08] Allan Dib: Yeah, for the people who are watching,
[00:02:09] Corey Quinn: I held one up for the camera. I'm sorry, go ahead.
[00:02:14] Allan Dib: I should have one, um, just handy here that I can put up. But, uh, anyway, you, you were well prepared, which is good. So. The whole idea is that literally in 20, 30 minutes, you can put together a comprehensive marketing plan for your business.
[00:02:29] Allan Dib: You can [00:02:30] be clear around your target market, your messaging, your media, how you're going to nurture leads, how you're going to convert them, and then how are you going to deliver a world class experience and then increase customer lifetime value. So it's all about the process of going through the plan because I remember early on in my business, I, in my first business, when.
[00:02:49] Allan Dib: I was completely clueless. I'm not from a marketing background. I'm from a geeky technical background. I hired a consultant to help me put together a business plan. We spent months and thousands of dollars and it was like [00:03:00] this big, long, complicated document which I never really used, right? I shoved it in the top drawer of my desk, never saw it again until I was cleaning out the office.
[00:03:08] Allan Dib: And so I wanted something that's practical, that's a living document that you can update easily, share with team, share with web developers, share with marketing agencies. And then as you get better and more information, you can just update it. You can literally have it pinned on the wall, or you can have a copy on your desk or whatever's relevant.
[00:03:25] Allan Dib: So it was something that I wanted. To be practical and really the 80 20 it's [00:03:30] not designed to be, you know, a voluminous plan with every single detail. It's designed to simply and quickly articulate the main key 80 20 of your marketing
[00:03:40] Corey Quinn: strategy. Yeah, I think that's brilliant. Having been. You know, in a marketing role at bigger companies, you get, so the default is to write long narratives and all these things.
[00:03:50] Corey Quinn: And when you, when you have to sit down and force yourself to art, like you said, articulate the, the, the, the few things that are going to make a difference in a small [00:04:00] confined space, you really have to work hard to get there. Meaning like you, you can't, like you, you don't have a lot of room to kind of be verbose.
[00:04:07] Corey Quinn: You have to get right to the, right to the chase. And I think that's really smart. Yeah. Could you, maybe you could walk us through what the scorecard is, how it's, you know, how it works and some of the major insights.
[00:04:20] Allan Dib: Yeah. So, so the plan is split up into three blocks of three. So the first is what we call the before phase, or maybe you might call it the attraction phase where someone doesn't even know [00:04:30] that you exist.
[00:04:30] Allan Dib: And so the three blocks are first of all, selecting your target market. Nailing your messaging. So what message is really going to resonate with that target market and get them to say, I want that. And then what media are we going to use to reach that target market? And so the whole goal of that phase is attraction or awareness.
[00:04:47] Allan Dib: So you get to get your ideal prospect to know you, to know that you exist. So, and Potentially raise their hand and say, Hey, look, I'm reasonably interested in what you've got, got to offer. So that's the first [00:05:00] phase. Then we move into the, the during phase or sometimes called the conversion phase. It's where we capture those leads, we nurture them, and then we have a sales conversion process.
[00:05:10] Allan Dib: So we take them from. vaguely interested, having raised their hand and say, and when I say raise their hand, it could be they clicked on your landing page, they called your office, you know, whatever, whatever they did to respond to your ad. And so we want to take them through to, from being vaguely interested, to having purchased from you for the first time.
[00:05:29] Allan Dib: [00:05:30] Now a lot of people believe marketing is done once the purchase is made and so, but really where, where sophisticated marketers come in is taking someone who's made a purchase for the first time and then first of all delivering a world class experience, increasing the customer's lifetime value because there are only two ways to grow a business.
[00:05:49] Allan Dib: There's you can get new clients, which is very sexy and very cool and everybody wants to do that. And the second way is to increase their, their lifetime value, which is really where the money is made. And [00:06:00] finally, we, in the, in the final step, we look at how do we get orchestrate and stimulate referrals.
[00:06:06] Allan Dib: And I say orchestrate and stimulate referrals, meaning it's an active process. Most people kind of hope and pray for referrals. Yeah. So that's essentially it in an, in a nutshell.
[00:06:15] Corey Quinn: Perfect. So let's double click into sort of the first. Step, which is your target market. A lot of agency owners that, that I speak with and I work with are reluctant to narrow the [00:06:30] target audience they want to market to anyone.
[00:06:32] Corey Quinn: Why would they, you know, limit their addressable market, right? So what are some of the benefits and how do you think about approaching, you know, the identification of a, of a niche or a vertical market?
[00:06:41] Allan Dib: Yeah, this is, this is such a counterintuitive and difficult thing for entrepreneurs, not just agencies.
[00:06:47] Allan Dib: And I mean, we've worked with, with a ton of agencies in our certification program, but for almost anyone, if you're a doctor, lawyer, butcher, baker, candlestick maker, it feels like if you widen the net, you'll get more clients. And it's kind [00:07:00] of counterintuitive and everything will drive you to kind of increase your addressable market and say to be anything for, for everyone.
[00:07:07] Allan Dib: But if you're all things to all people. No one's ever going to read your message or hear your message or see your message and say, Hey, that's for me. And it's kind of, um, there was an interesting little, uh, I think it was in pre suasion. Robert Cialdini had this little thing. Let me, let me see if I can actually find it.
[00:07:25] Allan Dib: It's super interesting. He has this little thing that he says. I'll find it in a [00:07:30] moment. But basically we want to be super specific around what, what we're doing. So most people, if you have a look at your own search history, so if you look at your Google search history, especially if you look at keywords where there's commercial intent, meaning people looking to buy something, you're usually very, very specific.
[00:07:50] Allan Dib: You're not typing in. car or doctor. You're typing in eye ear specialist in downtown Brooklyn, or you're typing in BMW X7 versus Range [00:08:00] Rover or things like that. So, and that's the exact thing, same thing that your target market is doing. And everybody's had this frustration where someone says, have you done work for doctors?
[00:08:10] Allan Dib: Well, no, I haven't worked for doctors, but really the marketing process is the same for doctors as it is for dentists, as it is for chiropractors, as it is for everybody else. But people look for specialists. Specialists can command a lot more money and specialists are sought after. So people will be typing in.
[00:08:28] Allan Dib: marketing agency for [00:08:30] dentists in California or marketing agency for chiropractors in Texas or that sort of thing. So as much as you can be specialized and niched down so that your messaging really lands with your audience, that's going to make a huge, huge difference. You talk
[00:08:46] Corey Quinn: about using the PVP index to help you select your perfect target market.
[00:08:50] Corey Quinn: Could you share what that is?
[00:08:52] Allan Dib: Yeah. So the PVP index talks about who are you going? Who's going to be a perfect fit for you? Meaning who are [00:09:00] you going to really enjoy working with? So who is really going to value what you do? Who's going to pay you a lot of money for what you do? So I've got a little three step scorecard that people can go through and figure out.
[00:09:13] Allan Dib: Okay. Who do I really enjoy working with? And you'll find if you get a phone call from a client and you see who's calling, you're like, Oh man, not this guy. So they're probably not a good fit versus a client. Oh, wow. I get to talk to them. You know, everybody's had those clients where [00:09:30] there's a perfect fit client and there's like.
[00:09:31] Allan Dib: Uh, client you just took on just for the revenue and they're such a pain. Always pay late, always want to speak to the CEO, always complaining, always unhappy for whatever reason. And so that's number one, because we all started our businesses to have fun, freedom, all of those sorts of things. So suboptimal clients and suboptimal clients are difficult on you, they're difficult on the team, and they're what I call desperate revenue, desperate revenues where.[00:10:00]
[00:10:00] Allan Dib: You took them on, they're not a good fit, they probably can't really afford you, but maybe you were a little bit aggressive in your sales process or you promised them the world and you really know deep down you can't deliver. And so you've taken them on. Next thing is we want to look for a target market that's going to pay you a lot for what you do.
[00:10:17] Allan Dib: So we want, we want them to really value what you do and pay you a lot for it. And finally, you can have a target market that's fun to work with and pay you a lot. But there's not much profit in it. And especially in the agency world [00:10:30] where it's very labor intensive, you know, and especially if you're going to deliver a good job, it's, it takes a lot of time, a lot of input.
[00:10:38] Allan Dib: There's a lot of custom work that you've got to do for, for each client as well. And so you might find with the amount of time that we've had to spend with this type of client or whatever, there's actually not really much profit in it. And so they're the three factors that we really want to look at. In selecting your target market, are they fun to work with?
[00:10:56] Allan Dib: Do they really value what you do and pay you a lot? And then finally, are they, are they profitable [00:11:00] to work with? Do you reckon with all
[00:11:01] Corey Quinn: this in mind? I think that that's great advice. With that in mind, do you recommend that they, they go and they niche out of the gate or they, they sort of start more as a generalist to kind of figure out what, what, who they do like working with and where the value is and the profits.
[00:11:15] Allan Dib: Yeah, no, straight out of the gate. I think that my view is, and this is a little bit controversial sometimes in the agency world, but I think the days of the generalist marketing agency are over. I don't think you're serving either yourself or your [00:11:30] client. Now why do I say that? Because first of all, marketing has gotten so much more complex, right?
[00:11:34] Allan Dib: You cannot be, you cannot possibly have an agency that's an That's an expert at SEO, that's an expert at pay per click, that's an expert at Facebook ads, that's an expert in copywriting, that's an expert at email marketing, and all of those things. So, if you're doing all of those things, you're probably going to do each one in a mediocre way.
[00:11:50] Allan Dib: I mean, there are agencies that just do You know, part of a, a TikTok strategy or part of email deliver, but like, I've got a guy [00:12:00] who I employ who's his sole job is not email marketing. It's just figuring out email deliverability, right? So just part of a little sliver of, of what I, what I need in one of my marketing processes.
[00:12:12] Allan Dib: And I think that's where the money is going to be made. And that's where You're going to get your sanity back because if you're a generalist marketing agency, you're probably out there making big promises to clients and deep down, you know, you can't deliver. You know, you're getting suboptimal clients who, uh, like just [00:12:30] abdicating their responsibility and just expecting miracles from you.
[00:12:34] Allan Dib: Right. And of course they're going to be unhappy. You're going to be unhappy. So if you specialize in one particular area, so it could be like ads on TikTok, or it could be how to get a YouTube video to rank better or whatever else, you're going to have to do a lot less unique work per client. So you're going to really be able to systemize the process, meaning, and you're going to be able to basically have that customer [00:13:00] factory where you know exactly the deliverables, you know exactly the inputs, you know what goes into doing it, and you're going to have to reduce.
[00:13:07] Allan Dib: You'll reduce the amount of unique work and labor that you have to put in, but also you're going to get much more reasonable clients who know, Hey, you're, you're delivering this specific thing, this specific deliverable, and they'll pay you more for it. And they'll have reasonable expectations and they'll, they'll be a better quality client because they'll come to you and say, knowing their target market, knowing their [00:13:30] messaging, having infrastructure already in place, and you're delivering that specialist piece of work that they need to.
[00:13:37] Allan Dib: To input into their infrastructure. It's so much better and so much cleaner than promising the world. And just knowing you, you really can't deliver.
[00:13:45] Corey Quinn: Being mediocre. Right. One of the people I've worked with, he's a mentor of mine. He's named Jonathan Stark. He calls it, you know, solving an expensive problem.
[00:13:53] Corey Quinn: And you know, if you have an expensive problem, IE, your email is not getting delivered that you need to, you need to find the [00:14:00] right person to fix that. Not, not screw around for six months, trying to figure it out on your dime. So that makes a lot of sense when it comes to messaging. Let's say that you've been able to find that you've gone through the PVP index and you've identified a vertical that sort of meets the criteria there.
[00:14:15] Corey Quinn: How do you, how do you go about developing that USP, that unique selling proposition that really stands out to that buyer?
[00:14:24] Allan Dib: Well, this is where. And, uh, creating that unique proposition becomes so much easy when [00:14:30] you've identified who your people are. You see, like the, the biggest mistake a lot of people make is they come up with a product or a solution or some widget or some process, and then they try to find a market for it.
[00:14:41] Allan Dib: And you know, in Silicon Valley, they call that a solution in search of a problem, right? And it's completely backwards. Once we find out who our people are, so let's say as an example, we, we decided that dentists who do Invisalign treatments are our ideal target market. It's a high [00:15:00] ticket item for them. We know how to run ads for, for that particular thing.
[00:15:05] Allan Dib: Now our messaging gets so much more, more powerful because we can now enter the conversation going on in the mind of that target market. We, we can attempt, you know, I'll give you an example. So. I've attended a lot of industry conferences and I love going to specialist industry conferences where You know, they're talking about a lot of industry stuff and all of that, but I'm usually the only one there [00:15:30] talking about marketing.
[00:15:30] Allan Dib: Like I attended one for the pharmacy industry and, you know, in half a day of hanging out with people in the pharmacy industry, I now know more about that industry, their pain points, what they're suffering with, what their hopes, what their dreams, what their desires are, than if I had to spend Six months online, trying to figure it out and, you know, figure out what, what they were worried about and all of those sorts of things.
[00:15:53] Allan Dib: Same thing again, I attended an IT industry conference recently. And again, I know what their pain points are. I [00:16:00] know where their opportunities are. And so if I can infiltrate one of these verticals. and really start understanding the who's who in the zoo. What, what are, what are profitable deals that they're chasing?
[00:16:12] Allan Dib: What are things, what are threats to their industry, either from technology or from competition or from the internet or whatever else. Now I can enter that conversation going on in their mind. Like for example, giving you the pharmacy example, they're all freaking out about like Amazon now doing pharmacy fulfillment.
[00:16:29] Allan Dib: Uh, [00:16:30] Mark Cuban's come in with some cost plus product or whatever else. And now they're looking for. so much for joining us today, and we'll see you in the next one. I spent half a day listening to, to speakers [00:17:00] talk about, you know, the challenges they've got and the opportunities that are coming up and all of those sorts of things.
[00:17:05] Allan Dib: So, um, that's where your messaging really starts to enter that conversation going on in the mind of your prospect and can be super, super clear and targeted.
[00:17:14] Corey Quinn: So one of the things that stood out about what you just shared is that the way you were able to do that quickly is by going and spending time with them.
[00:17:21] Corey Quinn: Go to, go to one of their conferences where they're, you know, you're immersing yourself in their world. It's kind of like a different. You know, a language program where they're going to [00:17:30] use different words and phraseologies and they're going to have acronyms and jargon that you're, you're really going to be able to pick up quickly by just physically being there.
[00:17:39] Allan Dib: It's such a good hack, you know, like physically being present at an industry conference. Like I said, I could have spent six months doing online research. I wouldn't have figured out half the stuff that I, I've. Picked up in a day. And it's because you speak to attendees. They usually have other speakers who are the who's who of the industry.
[00:17:56] Allan Dib: The topics are usually whatever's, you know, hot and going on in, [00:18:00] in that industry. And I kind of think about it, like, imagine the, you are a spy and the president. They said, look, I need you to infiltrate this market and come back with actionable insights. Tell me what, what are they, what are their hopes?
[00:18:13] Allan Dib: What are their dreams? What are their desires? What are they afraid of? We really need to know. I mean, you, yes, you might do a few Google searches. Yes. You might have a look at some Facebook communities, but you would physically go and try and infiltrate these communities and, and figure out what was going on so that you could hear firsthand the [00:18:30] chatter, what's going on.
[00:18:31] Allan Dib: What's happening. And so I think that's such a, such a good hack in terms of figuring out your target market. Uh, I
[00:18:37] Corey Quinn: love that. I think that's great actionable advice for, for folks listening. You also talk about this in chapter two, you also talk about how the offer is one of the most important parts of your marketing campaign.
[00:18:48] Corey Quinn: Um, I think probably agency owners know this, but maybe not have clarity on, on the right way or a good way to put together an irresistible offer. What do you, what do you recommend in that
[00:18:57] Allan Dib: regard? Yeah. So [00:19:00] it's called the irresistible offer. I like the way Alex Hormozy phrased that, you know, it's got an offer that you feel dumb saying no to, right?
[00:19:08] Allan Dib: So, and you know, that's not always possible. And, you know, sometimes going in with a complete kind of risk reversal guarantee and everything is not always possible or desirable, but really going in and talking about the problem that the person is experiencing and thinking of your product or service as.
[00:19:29] Allan Dib: The [00:19:30] tool to get what they actually want to get, right? Because nobody wants SEO. Nobody wants pay per click. Nobody wants email marketing. They want the things that they think those things will get them. So that's what our offer really needs to speak to. It needs to speak to the desire. That the prospect has, and the big problem that's happening in their mind.
[00:19:48] Allan Dib: A lot of, a lot of marketing and a lot of agencies are very self focused. We're awesome. We won these awards. We were started in 1985. I know about this. No one cares. And this is our building. [00:20:00] Right. Exactly.
[00:20:02] Corey Quinn: Yeah. I, I, uh, that brings me back to when I was at my last. agency, we were sort of hypnotized in that, that, that, that world of talking about ourselves.
[00:20:11] Corey Quinn: And, and, um, we went through, I mean, executive game did the Donald Miller's story brand stuff, you know, read through his book and he talks a lot about the hero and the, and the, you know, who the hero is, who's the guide, who's the hero. And we were, we were positioning ourselves as the hero, but in reality, the [00:20:30] client's the hero, we're just the guide.
[00:20:31] Corey Quinn: And that, that was a big sort of eyeopening experience for us.
[00:20:35] Allan Dib: Totally. It's funny how many, I mean, you see this with marketing agencies and they've got the big ClickFunnels award. And I mean, no one other than other agencies know what that is. I think a dentist has no freaking idea what your, your million dollar ClickFunnels, Comic Club thing is or whatever.
[00:20:51] Corey Quinn: Right, right, exactly. It'd be much more compelling to say that. You've won the, you know, the vendor of the year for your industry from a, from a [00:21:00] reputable sort of, uh, vertical, uh, association. So I think that's really smart. As relates to reaching prospects within this vertical or this niche, now that you've sort of, uh, uncovered, you've really developed your USP, you know, how do you choose which channels to focus on in reaching them?
[00:21:18] Allan Dib: So my view on this has always been that you really want to dominate at least one media channel. And then once you do, you add others. A lot of, a lot of what I [00:21:30] see is people kind of spreading themselves very thin across multiple media channels. So do a little bit on Facebook, do a little bit on Google, do a little and kind of, uh, there'll be usually one media channel that's super strong for you.
[00:21:45] Allan Dib: That's really, that You're really dominating in, and so I highly recommend at least in the beginning to really nail at least one media channel and then add others as you go. Now, obviously you do want to diversify media channels. You don't want to be single source [00:22:00] dependent where, you know, there's a Google slap or a Facebook, whatever, all of this.
[00:22:04] Allan Dib: People are now talking about a Gmail slap or whatever. All of this sort of stuff. So yes, you do definitely want to diversify your media channels, but you want to figure out, first of all, where, where do my prospects live? My ideal prospects, right? Where are they hanging out? Are they on YouTube? Are they on Facebook?
[00:22:21] Allan Dib: Are they, I mean, they may be in, in various places, but there'll be usually one dominant channel that you can really dominate and then, and then add others. So that's, that's my [00:22:30] recommendation. Also, I mean, we're talking to marketing agencies, but if I were talking to a normal business, I would say as well, media tends to be your most expensive part of your marketing process.
[00:22:40] Allan Dib: So get an expert to really help you with that. So I've hired experts in specific media channels and they're worth their weight in gold because there's some propeller head or geek who's spending all day figuring out how to hack Google ads or how to figure out how to rank better on, on this website or whatever else.
[00:22:57] Allan Dib: Right. So. They're worth their weight in gold. So if you're working [00:23:00] with media that you're not super familiar with, you'll waste a lot of time, money, and energy trying to figure
[00:23:04] Corey Quinn: out. It's too easy. It's so easy to waste money with media for sure. What are your, what are your thoughts on for agencies specifically starting their own newsletter or building a subscriber list?
[00:23:15] Allan Dib: I think it's essential. You really want to move people onto owned assets. So where you're the landlord rather than the tenant, because if you're on Facebook or Twitter or It's good. I mean, you, [00:23:30] you, you definitely want to be there, but all roads lead to Rome, which is your own assets, your website, your email list, all of those things, because, you know, people think if they're not too controversial or not political or whatever, you can't get shadow banned or removed or whatever.
[00:23:45] Allan Dib: Not true. Like, I mean, we've seen and. You know, I'm sure media agencies have seen, uh, over and over people who not doing anything weird or controversial or crazy get their Facebook ads banned or delisted or whatever, and so it's a huge [00:24:00] risk if you're dependent on somebody else for your, for your incoming leads.
[00:24:05] Allan Dib: So you really didn't want to be building some of your own assets.
[00:24:08] Corey Quinn: Any advice on how to get started with a newsletter for an agency?
[00:24:12] Allan Dib: Just, just do it. Just get it out. You just, just set it up, set up, set up ConvertKit or Beehive or HubSpot or whatever tool you like to use and just start sending, sending one out to all of your clients and all of your, your prospects and do it at least weekly.
[00:24:28] Allan Dib: That's my recommendation. Just [00:24:30] send out something that's going to be valuable. That's going to help them get a result in advance. So, and keep them warm because really. We find that a market is split into two kind of buckets. There are people who are ready to buy today and they'll buy from you immediately, but they tend to be a very small percentage, around maybe 3 percent of your addressable market.
[00:24:50] Allan Dib: And then there's a huge, much bigger prize waiting. They're the people who are going to be ready in 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, a year. I mean, it's not unusual for someone to have been on my mailing list [00:25:00] for a year or two before they're like, look, I've been on your list for ages. really like what you do. How do I buy one of your programs?
[00:25:07] Allan Dib: And so if you don't have that in place, you're really going to be losing a huge amount of potential revenue because In a year, if I had not kept in touch with someone, they would have no idea that, I mean, do you remember who, whose list, who, who you, whose ad you clicked on a year ago? I mean, you probably wouldn't remember whose ad you clicked on last week, right?
[00:25:29] Allan Dib: So if [00:25:30] you're not, you don't have a mechanism to keep in touch and nurture those leads over time, you're losing massive amounts of revenue.
[00:25:36] Corey Quinn: Hey, it's Cory. Almost every day I talk with agency owners who are frustrated with getting their outbound program off the ground. The truth is, too many agencies are too dependent on inbounds and referrals to grow their business.
[00:25:52] Corey Quinn: We all know that it's getting harder and harder to generate inbounds and that it's just not a sustainable way to grow your business. I'd like to [00:26:00] give you the six secrets for driving consistent ROI from your outbound. that I learned as Scorpion's Chief Marketing Officer, where we doubled the business from 20 million to 40 million just by adding Outbound to an existing inbound only program.
[00:26:16] Corey Quinn: It's a free 6 day email course that will transform your outbound from broken to consistently driving new sales opportunities. You could sign up and get the first secret right now by going to getoutboundroy. com [00:26:30] That's get OutboundROI. com, now back to the show. So I think, you know, when you talk about the difference between hunting and farming, when you talk about an email list in this process of, you know, staying in touch on a weekly basis, that's more of like a farming approach.
[00:26:47] Corey Quinn: And
[00:26:48] Allan Dib: by the way, both hunting and farming are okay. Like hunting is stuff like cold email, cold calling, all of that. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. And it's, it's fine as part of your overall marketing [00:27:00] mix. But if you're solely reliant on hunting, that's kind of really, really business in hard mode.
[00:27:05] Allan Dib: You know, you're, you're pushing every day. You're starting every day with zero. You're trying to close deals and you're highly dependent on response rates and things like that. Whereas farming is much more predictable. You, you plant. You order and you harvest. So, so it's not that I think hunting is bad, but I think it's a lot harder if you're solely reliant.
[00:27:23] Corey Quinn: You don't have the farming at the same time. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So let's say you, the, the [00:27:30] agency now has been collecting some leads, but is there maybe the, the 97 or the 95 percent who are not buying today, one of the things you talk about, and this is something I, I have a lot of experience with, uh, and I love is lumpy mail and the shock and awe package.
[00:27:46] Corey Quinn: Love that stuff. So, how do you choose, the assumption is that these are people in, that have come in as a lead, not ready to buy yet. How do you choose which item, first off, which item to send, and who do you send it to?
[00:27:59] Allan Dib: Yeah. [00:28:00] Look, it's, it's really, this is where some of your creativity can, can come in. And one of the things, I mean, it could be as simple as a book, like for example, we will often, and it's funny, I found it was actually cheaper just to physically send a copy of my book, like a, like a paperback copy of my book, including mailing and everything like that, than to actually run a Facebook ad to get somebody to opt in and request it.
[00:28:26] Allan Dib: Isn't that interesting?[00:28:30]
[00:28:34] Allan Dib: So there's a couple of ways to approach this. First of all, with leads. So a lead comes in and maybe they've asked you to quote, or they, they've some kind of inquiry and you can see it's a high value lead. It's worth spending 10 or 20 to wow them. Right. So that's one way you can use a shock and awe package.
[00:28:52] Allan Dib: Another way. would be what we call like a dream 100 kind of strategy. So where you know that [00:29:00] these would be my top hundred or top 50 ideal clients. And I'm going to spend the next six months to a year just figuring out how to get in front of them, how to wow them, how to impress them. And so you might send a shock and awe package in that kind of instance.
[00:29:16] Allan Dib: Sometimes another way that it can be used is let's say, You've got someone who you've been dealing with. Maybe you've quoted them. You've had a few discussions. They're still not closing, right? And so a shock and awe [00:29:30] package can be a great way to kind of warm them up even further or just impress them with something unexpected.
[00:29:36] Allan Dib: Now the whole idea of shopping a shock and awe package is that it's it's stuff that will be genuinely helpful and valuable to them. It's not just your Crappy mug and pen with your logo on it or whatever, right? So that's not a gift for you. That's a gift That's not a gift for them. That's a gift for you, right?
[00:29:55] Allan Dib: To me what one of the one of the ideal things is a book [00:30:00] and you know bonus points if it's a book that you've Written first of all books have an intrinsic value. So meaning they're worth, you know, maybe twenty twenty five dollars or whatever it is But especially if it's a book that you've written that's got valuable information, again, that's a powerful positioning tool.
[00:30:15] Allan Dib: And they're an easy way, you know, you don't have to be Hemingway or write, you know, an amazing book. It can be just really about how you work, your process, you know, some of the unique insights and opinions that you've got that are different from others in the industry. And if no one ever [00:30:30] even reads your book or reads any of your book, That's still fine.
[00:30:33] Allan Dib: It's still a positioning tool. I kind of think of it like as the nuclear weapon of business cards. So it's a, it's really, really powerful. You know, I've years ago when I did corporate consulting and I haven't done that for many years, but I walked into like a pitch meeting and there were three executives there.
[00:30:51] Allan Dib: There was a CMO, the CEO and the COO and they all had Copies of my book are already there. And the CMO goes, Oh, I loved your book. Uh, would you [00:31:00] autograph it for me? And I'm like, you know, how much more powerful is that versus the next guy who was going to walk in with a flimsy little business card and tell them how awful it was,
[00:31:07] Corey Quinn: right?
[00:31:08] Corey Quinn: Beautiful, beautiful. Another, another benefit of sending a book is that it ends up. on their bookcase. No one throws books away, right? I mean, it's like, it's sacrilegious to do that, right? And so you just sit on their bookshelf and until they're ready to buy. I love that. So you send a shock and awe. And this is typically after there's been some interaction is, is when you, is, is, is when you [00:31:30] typically do this, or is it as like a cold first touch or.
[00:31:33] Allan Dib: But it can be both. Yeah. Yeah. So like I said, it could be used to, in a Dream 100 strategy in which it might be a little bit more cold or often it, it to, to war warm up an interaction further. And it's, it's often, it is often quite shocking to people to get something physically in the mail. You know, because most people, uh, will, yeah.
[00:31:52] Allan Dib: If you are sending them more information, okay, I'll send you an email or I'll send you a PDF file or I'll send you a link to something, whatever. And you know, most digital [00:32:00] inboxes are now. Overflowing and flooded, whereas physical inboxes, uh, cleaner and clearer than ever before. And you can really stand out.
[00:32:07] Allan Dib: And so as marketers, we want to stand out and be a patent interrupt in someone's life. So someone getting a package, especially unexpectedly from you, and especially. But if it's something valuable and cool, and you can have a lot of fun with this. You can include little trinkets. You can include, sometimes I'll include like a little desk toy.
[00:32:25] Allan Dib: Like this is, I've got here, um, a little tungsten cube that's, um, [00:32:30] you know, Uh, you can be, you can be very creative, show off your personality and stuff like that. My friend, John Grueland, he wrote a book called Giftology. So he's got a lot of good ideas in there. So, you know, something a little bit personalized for them.
[00:32:46] Allan Dib: And especially if they're a high value lead, it's worth your while.
[00:32:50] Corey Quinn: You don't know this about me, Alan, but I've. I've literally, we, we spent millions of dollars on cookies, like gourmet cookies as a first touch in a multi [00:33:00] touch sales process that helped us to grow rapidly at my last company. So I'm a big, big fan of this, particularly in the first touch.
[00:33:09] Corey Quinn: Like if you get the, if you get it right to your point, it has to. You know, it has to send the right signal and message, but it's a, it's a fantastic way to start a, start a new relationship, particularly if it's one of these
[00:33:21] Allan Dib: ones. No one does this. That's the thing. Like, um, and it can be as simple and cheap as a handwritten note.
[00:33:27] Allan Dib: Like if you don't want to spend all the money on a package and [00:33:30] everything like that, a handwritten note, that's still a massive patent. That would cost you. Like maybe 2 to send out,
[00:33:36] Corey Quinn: right? Yeah, and exactly because no one does it. So I'm going to continue to preach it and you're hearing it folks from Alan as well as a great, as a great way to, like you said, pattern interrupt.
[00:33:46] Corey Quinn: It's so easy to ignore phone calls and emails and LinkedIn messages. This is something that's truly different and still today.
[00:33:56] Allan Dib: And it has pretty close to a 100 percent open range, right? [00:34:00] I mean, have you ever received a package and just thrown it out and not opened
[00:34:03] Corey Quinn: it? Exactly. I mean, come on. This is like, how much more obvious could it be?
[00:34:08] Corey Quinn: You mentioned this earlier, but in the book you talk about how important follow up is in the process. I think we've all, I'll speak for myself. I've certainly not in every case done a great job of following up, but this idea that It's not on the first or second contact or outreach. It could be on the 10th or the 12th outreach that you actually, the timing happens [00:34:30] to be perfect where they're ready to engage.
[00:34:33] Corey Quinn: Talk more about that.
[00:34:34] Allan Dib: Totally. Especially when it, when it's a high consideration purchase. I mean, if you think about. The last thing of high value that you bought, let's say a car or hiring a web developer or whatever it is. You probably didn't wake up that morning and decide, okay, today, I'm going to buy a car, right?
[00:34:49] Allan Dib: You probably research, okay, do I want a fuel powered one or do I want one electric? Do I want an SUV? Or do I want to. Tudor, Coupe or whatever, right? So there was a [00:35:00] reasonable consideration period. And even if you knew what model you want or exactly what, what car you wanted, you still might've researched some of the different options that are available.
[00:35:09] Allan Dib: You still might've researched some of the different pricing, watched a few YouTube videos, watch some unboxing videos or, or whatever. And so. Everyone here is selling something high value, right? So there's going to be a consideration period. Your prospect is unlikely to wake up that morning and say, I'm going to hire a marketing agency today, right?
[00:35:27] Allan Dib: So you want to enter that conversation. They're going to [00:35:30] have that conversation regardless, right? They're going to do some of that research. They're going to consider, you know, I don't know, should I go with someone who's doing Google ads or Facebook ads? You know, what's the difference? Okay. So you can be involved in that conversation in the nurturing process.
[00:35:43] Allan Dib: And. Follow up, when I'm talking about follow up, I'm not talking about the pestering follow up like hey, buy from us now, when are we going to close, all of this sort of stuff. I mean value building follow up because if someone's been involved in that journey with you, helping you make better decisions, giving you good information, [00:36:00] uh, helping you become a better customer, then that's super valuable.
[00:36:04] Allan Dib: You're unlikely to just go with someone else random, uh, versus someone who's been helpful and useful to you, uh, during your buying journey. And I think,
[00:36:14] Corey Quinn: you know, uh, people will worry about, and I'm speaking about myself, like, you don't want to sound desperate or needy in your follow up. So the way to do that is, you know, you need to just add value.
[00:36:27] Corey Quinn: You're not there to take, you're there to give type of thing. [00:36:30] Totally. Yeah, totally. That's awesome. All right. So you've. Sent them a lumpy mail, something amazing. You were able to follow up at the right time. Now they're your customer. What are the keys to delivering a world class experience?
[00:36:44] Allan Dib: Yeah. So delivering a world class experience will be so much easier if you've selected your ideal target market, right?
[00:36:50] Allan Dib: So we've all worked with suboptimal clients, you know, people who. Expect the world, don't want to pay anything, need it done yesterday, all that sort of stuff. So if you've [00:37:00] done, if you've done the first step right, which is selecting your target market, now creating a tribe of raving fans is going to be so much easier.
[00:37:07] Allan Dib: So we, we want to, we want to deliver a wow experience and whatever that might be in your industry. Now there's the actual deliverable, which is probably So reasonably a commodity, right? Someone who's a good web developer, you know, doesn't differ from another web developer dramatically. So it's often not about the actual thing you do.
[00:37:27] Allan Dib: Yes, of course, you've got to do a good job. Yes, you've got to [00:37:30] meet timeframes and deliverables and budgets and all of that, of course, but that's the baseline expectation. What can you do over and above that to deliver an amazing experience? So that can be in your communication. That can be in the way that.
[00:37:43] Allan Dib: that you engage with your clients. Uh, so, you know, when I think about, like, I, I, I've switched accountants maybe three or four times throughout my business career, and the switch has never been about, hey, this accountant knows the accounting code better, or he can do my tax [00:38:00] return better or anything like that.
[00:38:01] Allan Dib: It's always been the. Uh, other stuff, the common stuff, returning a phone call, returning an email, being responsive, being proactive, because pretty much most accountants, uh, working with the same tax code, they've got the same bag of tricks to legally minimize your, your tax and things like that, and that's the same for most industries, so the thing that you do is often not I think that's, that's probably the most common one.
[00:38:23] Allan Dib: And it's not the switching factor. And you know, again, you think about like, if you've ever hired an IT guy, again, most IT guys do [00:38:30] a pretty similar job. I mean, yes, of course there are bad ones and good ones, but most of the time it's like, Is he there when I need him? Like, uh, is he answering phone calls? Is he getting back?
[00:38:40] Allan Dib: Is the problem recurring? So with that, it's kind of like the, it's the uncommon, do the common stuff uncommonly well, is what I often say. So that's number one, but also Being a voice of value to your tribe, you know, they're positioning yourself, not just as someone who delivers a service, but being a [00:39:00] voice of value to them and a thought leader in your industry.
[00:39:04] Allan Dib: So, and that's where a lot of creating your content comes in. That that's helpful in the before phase when we're trying to attract new clients, but also being there for clients, creating value. It could be educational webinars. It could be ways to show them that. How they can use your product or service in a, in a better or deeper way.
[00:39:23] Allan Dib: So all of those sorts of things can create value. And, and again, similar to what we discussed in the shock and awe package, it can be as [00:39:30] simple as, Hey, you know, they've just had a, they've had a baby born or whatever, a little thing, a little handwritten note or a gift basket or whatever, just little interactions that are meaningful, that are unexpected and that are, that are personalized.
[00:39:43] Allan Dib: Those can really create a tribe of raving fans. Yeah.
[00:39:46] Corey Quinn: It's the, it's the, the. The common things that are uncommon. In some respects, right? You mentioned the, the, the, the idea of polluted revenue and in the book you talk about the uneven dollar, which is really about the, the, the poor [00:40:00] fit clients, the toxic relationships.
[00:40:02] Corey Quinn: What are some ways that, and this definitely happens in the agency space, what are some ways that you could resolve
[00:40:09] Allan Dib: that? I talk about the principle of the unequal dollar, meaning if you go to your bank and you deposit a dollar from an un, from suboptimal client or an optimal client, your, your bank will treat those as equal dollars.
[00:40:21] Allan Dib: But one of those dollars that from, from your optimal client is worth way more because that client is easy to work with. They [00:40:30] pay on time. They refer new business to you. They have reasonable expectations. Whereas the dollar from the suboptimal client, they've been painful. They've been rude to your team.
[00:40:38] Allan Dib: They pay late. They have crazy expectations, all of those sorts of things. So the fact is sometimes you've just got to go through your client base and you've just got to fire suboptimal clients. And it feels weird. I mean, from someone in a marketing space where we're trying to maximize revenue to say, Hey, fire clients, but you're going to make so much room [00:41:00] and capacity for ideal clients.
[00:41:01] Allan Dib: Like right now, if you have a, have a look at your, your clients. The ones that are generating the most profit are probably the least painful to work with. You probably spend 80 percent of your time putting out fires with your 20 percent of sub optimal clients than you do giving love and attention to your most optimal clients.
[00:41:21] Allan Dib: So clearing out And so the, the suboptimal clients or sending them to your competitor or whatever is just going to make capacity, [00:41:30] both mentally, but also with your team and with your resources to really create an amazing experience and, and more lifetime revenue from your most optimal clients.
[00:41:39] Corey Quinn: I couldn't agree more.
[00:41:40] Corey Quinn: I love it. So the ninth. Sort of step in the, in the one page marketing plan is orchestrating and stimulating referrals. This isn't just waiting for referrals to come in, is it?
[00:41:51] Allan Dib: Yeah. Yeah. So most people kind of hope and pray for referrals. Hey, if I do a really good job, I'll get referrals. And that sometimes does happen, but it's pretty, pretty rare.
[00:41:59] Allan Dib: [00:42:00] Generally, even if you've done a great job, it's just because. You know, your prospect or your client isn't sitting there thinking about you all day. They're thinking about themselves, their problems, their business, all of that sort of thing. So you've got to figure out ways to orchestrate and stimulate referrals, meaning it's an active process, meaning it's something you do intentionally.
[00:42:18] Allan Dib: And a few ways of doing that is first of all, Being very specific and making it part of your product. So what I mean by that is a lot of times people won't give you [00:42:30] referrals because you know, you might finish the job with them. You might say, Hey, do you know anyone else who needs a website? And they're like, they've kind of been blindsided.
[00:42:39] Allan Dib: They're like, they haven't been thinking about that. It's not something that's been on their mind. And they're like, um, no, really can't think of anyone. If I think of something or someone, I'll let you know. Whereas if only in the onboarding phase or even in the sales phase, you say, look, Mr. Prospect or Mr.
[00:42:54] Allan Dib: Customer or, or, uh, you are an ideal client and we get most of our business through [00:43:00] referral. So I'd love you to keep in mind as we work together, if you know any other dentists in your industry or, or, or physios or whatever, being very, very specific about who you want and being clear upfront that this is an expectation of working with us so that when you get to the end of the job, they're not blindsided.
[00:43:18] Allan Dib: They're like, they've already had this in mind. You've already had that discussion and they'll come across them in their, in their travels. The second way that we really orchestrate and stimulate referrals is by [00:43:30] arming our referral network. So what I mean by that is someone usually won't. I don't create a referral to you unless they're absolutely sure that that person is a perfect fit and ready to buy.
[00:43:42] Allan Dib: Why? Because, you know, I don't want my friend to be bombarded by sales emails or sales calls or whatever if I, if I think he's maybe ready to buy or maybe thinking about this product or service. I'll only make that referral if I'm absolutely sure he's ready to buy right now and he just needs to speak to a [00:44:00] salesperson.
[00:44:00] Allan Dib: So what can you do that's kind of an intermediate step? So. You can pass something on of value. So a couple of, a couple of examples I give, so again, I will often give two copies of my book to someone, so one copy is for them, one copy is for them to pass on to somebody else, so a book can be really valuable that way.
[00:44:20] Allan Dib: It could be a gift card, and I, I like doing actual physical plastic gift cards because everybody associates little plastic cards with value, especially if you've got a A [00:44:30] face value on them. So, you know, everyone's seen iTune cards and all of that sort of thing where it's got $50 or a hundred dollars or whatever.
[00:44:37] Allan Dib: And again, it feels weird to take a, a plastic card with a hundred dollars face value and just throw it in the bin. , most likely you will either hang onto it or, or pass it onto someone and say, Hey, I work with this guy. Here's a hundred dollars gift card if you ever decide to work with him or, or whatever.
[00:44:53] Allan Dib: So there's a few different ways that, that you can do that. But how can you arm your referral network where, yeah. You can give them [00:45:00] something that they could pass on to somebody who's maybe thinking about it. Who's not ready to speak to a salesperson, not ready to buy right now, but they're thinking about what you do.
[00:45:08] Allan Dib: I love
[00:45:09] Corey Quinn: that and, and complimenting the, the idea that in early in the relationship, you set the expectation that, you know, we, we, we grow based on referrals and. You know, you probably came to me on a referral and we'd love to keep that, that bojo, you know, going. And, and at some point you will come back and ask them for that referral.
[00:45:27] Corey Quinn: So I think that's, that's a great thing to do. It's a [00:45:30] small, small thing to add, but not many people do it. That's awesome. Anything else about the one page marketing plan that we missed that you think is important to touch on?
[00:45:39] Allan Dib: I think that. And again, we're talking to marketing agencies and people who understand marketing, but it's not the best agency that's going to win.
[00:45:48] Allan Dib: It's the best known agency or best marketed agency. So that mindset shift around moving from being just a marketing agency to someone who's a [00:46:00] marketer of marketing agency services. And, you know, a lot of, a lot of marketing agencies have actually pivoted from. Actually doing the work to just marketing the work and then outsourcing that work to, to somebody else, do the back end work.
[00:46:14] Allan Dib: Right. Cause that, that stuff for the most part, I mean, not, not always. And I don't want to, I don't want to put any, anyone down, but for the most part, that's a commodity, right? So the, the pumping out of the, the ads, the content, all of that sort of thing. So the real key differentiator is how can you [00:46:30] market yourself in a way that's more powerful.
[00:46:34] Corey Quinn: Great, uh, provocative question. You have a book coming out next year, so we're recording in 2023 at the end of 2023, so depending on when this airs, it probably will air next year. So when, tell us about the book that you have, that you've been working on.
[00:46:48] Allan Dib: Yeah, the book coming out, it's called Lean Marketing and it's very much a successor to the One Page Marketing Plan.
[00:46:54] Allan Dib: The One Page Marketing Plan was all about. This is not about, you know, uh, your plan or your strategic plan. This is about [00:47:00] implementation. How do we get the, uh, the plan actually implemented? And the premise of the book is lean is about doing more with less. So lean is a philosophy that's especially been used extensively in the manufacturing industry.
[00:47:16] Allan Dib: It took Japanese manufacturers from being the worst in the world in the 1940s 40s and 50s to being the best in the world in the 80s and so on. And even today, you know, if you want a reliable low cost [00:47:30] car or electronics or whatever, it's very hard to go past Japanese made manufacturers. So like a Toyota or Honda or whatever.
[00:47:38] Allan Dib: And so basically taking lean philosophy and applying that to marketing. So how can we get bigger results by doing actually less marketing? So a lot of A lot of mark every marketing book you read is now telling you, do more of this, do more of that. And you're like far out. Like my to do list just keeps growing every time I read a book.
[00:47:59] Allan Dib: Yeah, you gotta start
[00:47:59] Corey Quinn: [00:48:00] a TikTok channel.
[00:48:01] Allan Dib: Exactly, you gotta start a TikTok channel, do a YouTube, do this and that. And when I looked at both, ourselves and some of our most successful clients, they were doing less marketing. Their not to do list was way bigger than their actual to do list, but they went deeper into those few things that they were doing, and they were doing those really, really well.
[00:48:23] Allan Dib: And so that's, that's a lot of the premise of lean marketing is how do we get bigger results by doing less stuff? And there's three [00:48:30] components to that. If we want to get more. By doing less, we have to use a concept called leverage, right? Leverage means we, we take one input and we force multiply it. So we, we, and we get more out.
[00:48:43] Allan Dib: And so there are really three things from a marketing perspective that's going to help you get leverage and multiply. the force of your inputs. That's tools. So, meaning the tools that you use like CRM systems and content management systems, all of that sort of thing. There are assets, and again, we talked about assets [00:49:00] like a book, like a cornerstone piece of content or those kind of things.
[00:49:05] Allan Dib: And then processes. Processes are how we win in business and in life. They're the small compounding gains, the daily, weekly, monthly. So how do I get physically strong? I lift weights three, three times a week. And then that takes a year, but you start to see the results over time compound. How do you get wealthy?
[00:49:26] Allan Dib: Again, through compound interest, you know, in the beginning, it feels like almost [00:49:30] nothing's happening, but you're, you're reinvesting the gains, you're, they're compounding, they're compounding, and you get, you're getting wealthy. So with those three things, Tools, assets, and processes, they're force multipliers in a marketing process.
[00:49:42] Allan Dib: And that's how we, we can do less marketing and get bigger results.
[00:49:47] Corey Quinn: So the promise of getting, getting more out of less is, is a big one. And I, and I think how you boiled it down right now into these three tools, your assets and process. I'm personally very excited to [00:50:00] read this. I think you, I mentioned this before we started recording, but I think you have a real talent in being able to take.
[00:50:05] Corey Quinn: Potentially very messy topics and being able to communicate them in a way that's very approachable. So I think it's, I think it's going to be a fantastic book and I can't wait to read it. Can't wait to share it with you. Oh, beautiful. Now, is there a place where people can go today to maybe get on a list to get that book because I think it's in pre, pre launch or is there somewhere, uh, you can make them go through
[00:50:25] Allan Dib: it?
[00:50:25] Allan Dib: On amazon. com at the moment. Um, and you can certainly join my mailing [00:50:30] list, which is at successwise. com. Uh, you can grab the one page marketing plan. Uh, Canvas there, and we've got a bunch of resources that are, that are free. So, uh, happy to connect
[00:50:41] Corey Quinn: with people there. Beautiful. I'm on your email list and I, and I, you do live up to the, what you teach about providing value, so.
[00:50:48] Corey Quinn: Um, I definitely recommend folks listening to check that out as well. It's, it's at successwise. com. Is that correct? Thank you so much, Corey. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much, Alan, for coming on the show. You've been a tremendous amount of [00:51:00] value here and, um, it's been, uh, it's been really great, I'm sure it's going to be.
[00:51:04] Corey Quinn: Very well received. So we'll, uh, appreciate that. We'll talk soon. All right, folks, that's it for today. I'm Corey Quinn, and I hope you join me again next time for the Vertical Go To Market Podcast. If you receive value from the show, I would love a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks, and we'll see you soon.
