Full Episode 6
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[00:00:00] Corey Quinn: Welcome to the Vertical Go-To-Market podcast. We'll discover new opportunities to grow your business. From seven figures to eight, from the world's most successful agency and SaaS executives. I'm your host, Corey Quinn. Today I'm joined by Carmen Pirie. Welcome Carmen.
[00:00:19] Caraman Pirie: Thanks so much, Corey. It's uh, great to be on the show.
[00:00:21] Corey Quinn: Can you please introduce yourself to those listeners who may not be familiar with you and your background?
[00:00:27] Caraman Pirie: Yeah. Well, I'm assuming that's probably all listeners. Um, uh, uh, my name's Carmen Pirie. Uh, I, I'm a co-owner of, um, a agency, called Coola Partners, and we specialize in maximizing revenue potential for B2B manufacturers. So we help our, clients, sell within, uh, niche markets and, uh, Technical, uh, markets frankly, and, and take a more targeted account based approach, to growing revenue within those niche markets.
[00:00:57] So we're an agency, a marketing [00:01:00] agency that's just squarely focused on working with B2B manufacturers. So that's a little bit about the agency
[00:01:05] Corey Quinn: Can you share a little bit about the types of customers specifically that you work with? Maybe give the listeners a, a sense for like a typical customer that you may, be working with.
[00:01:16] Caraman Pirie: Uh, you know, it's interesting because we do say, of course you think about B2B manufacturing, and that's a fairly, you know, for a lot of people, I think a lot of agency owners that would seem incredibly niche. Um, I would suggest to you it's really quite broad . Um, uh, so, uh, you know, we work with for instance, uh, everything from contract manufacturers in, uh, in the electronic space or even in the, uh, heavy machining industrial space, through to flexible packaging manufacturers, even skincare supplement brands.
[00:01:49] So, um, a lot of kind of different facets of B2B manufacturing. Marketing. But every one of our clients is really a, a, a manufacturer that pretty much sells to [00:02:00] other manufacturers, at the very least other businesses.
[00:02:03] Corey Quinn: And so you're helping your customers to attract more customers, obviously, for their business, and those are typically other businesses.
[00:02:11] Caraman Pirie: Always other businesses. Yes, and most often other manufacturers, which uh, almost seems like the kind of a Russian doll almost, you
[00:02:19] Corey Quinn: Yeah. Right.
[00:02:20] Caraman Pirie: signed, other manufacturers, but.
[00:02:22] Corey Quinn: for context for the listeners, what can you share about maybe the size of your agency, the number of clients you have, revenue, number of employees, whatever you're comfortable with sharing.
[00:02:32] Caraman Pirie: Ah, I'm, we're pretty, we're a pretty private bunch when it comes to, to revenue and those kinds of things, but, you know, we're a small team. We're like, like 16 people or so. Um, so, we probably have more clients than we ought to in some ways. I mean, it's like, uh, . I say that to people knowing that the audience are probably agency owners and, okay, you have a kind of a.
[00:02:55] So we've been around for a long while, since 2004. So, you know, there's [00:03:00] legacy clients that maybe still get hosting from us or something like that, of course. Um, uh, but, uh, where the rubber really meets the rob, we, we try to work with, uh, somewhere in the neighborhood of, uh, uh, of 10 to 12 clients at any given time, sometimes a little bit more.
[00:03:16] Um, uh, yeah, so, you know, 16 people or so, and like I said, pretty, uh, squarely focused on, on B2B manufacturers.
[00:03:24] Corey Quinn: What is your role there as co-founder, principal? What does your day-to-day look like?
[00:03:29] Caraman Pirie: Ah, ah, man. We can't disclose that. Then. Everybody that works here will know how little I do. Um, look, uh, my, my, I I say this, um, Corey, quite honestly, I, my job is to work myself out of jobs. And, uh, and I'm pretty good at doing that. So I, uh, try to, uh, you know, I, I I, my only real, if I were giving my job to somebody else and I had to tell 'em what it is, well, you know, I do, uh, [00:04:00] lead the sales conversations when those are happening, you know?
[00:04:03] We do not bring on a new client every week by any stretch of the imagination. So it's not like there's 50 sales conversations on the go at any one time. Uh, but that is the side of the business that I, uh, I, I still lead. and I oversee, uh, the strategy delivery, uh, within the business. Um, but I, uh, in no way do I want to make it sound as though I am toiling away at doing the hard work because there are people much smarter than I working with me that do.
[00:04:31] Corey Quinn: That's great. It's always good as a leader to be surrounded by really, really smart, hardworking, ambitious folks.
[00:04:38] Caraman Pirie: Yeah, it is good. And it's, uh, even better if you realize that and then get out of their way.
[00:04:43] Corey Quinn: That's right. Can you share with us a little bit of the story behind your unique brand? Name Kula partners.
[00:04:50] Caraman Pirie: yeah. Uh, sure. I, I, I became aware back, back in the. Kind of the early days, what seemed like the web, uh, say the web 2.0 [00:05:00] days when people actually talked about blogging, like it was a thing and you had blogs, writing about blogging, right. like, um, and uh, uh, and, and, and at that time one of, um, Kind of early voices, I would say, um, was Hugh MacLeod, gapingvoid.com.
[00:05:17] Um, and he kind of got famous for drawing cartoons on the back of business cards. And when I say famous, I really just mean Web 2.0, internet famous at that time. Um, uh, I, uh, he did illustrate one of Seth Gordon's books, so that's a pretty big deal, I suppose. Um, And, uh, Hugh talked, uh, a fair bit about, this notion of, of social objects, uh, and that a lot of what was happening in the world of marketing was the creation of social objects that were not in.
[00:05:51] And of the, the thing that was being created in and of itself wasn't particularly me. Uh, what was important was that it brought people together, and the analogy that was [00:06:00] being used at the time was the, the Kula ring, which is a, uh, tribal trading ring in Papa New Guinea that's been around for, you know, it's been, it's been studied for, for a very long time.
[00:06:10] and they, they basically trade, uh, the tribes in Papua New Guinea would trade. pieces of Kula, which are, uh, uh, basically necklaces and bracelets made of seashells typically. and there's this elaborate trading ceremonies, uh, as one tribe meets another, where the pieces of cooler are exchanged.
[00:06:31] And the pieces of pool themselves are not particularly, uh, valuable and, uh, they don't really serve a purpose other than the connection of one part of, uh, one tribe to another or one island to another. And, so that parallel I think exists, uh, a lot in, in a world of marketing. And so, you know, is the podcasts that we're, recording today, uh, particularly, uh, meaningful?
[00:06:58] I would say no. [00:07:00] What's meaningful is that if it brings people together, it gives them some ideas. That's the, that's the power, that's the meaning. So that's where, uh, Kula Partners came from as a name.
[00:07:11] Corey Quinn: That's awesome. You're bringing me back to my college days, interestingly, where I studied at University of California Santa Cruz, uh, where I majored in cultural anthropology. And they're, they
[00:07:24] Caraman Pirie: cooler ring very well.
[00:07:26] Corey Quinn: I've heard of the cooler ring and I did a whole class on Papua New Guinea. It's a fascinating culture that, uh, throughout the ages, a really interesting place.
[00:07:34] So thank you for sharing that.
[00:07:36] Caraman Pirie: No, not at all.
[00:07:38] Corey Quinn: so has Kula Partners always been focused on the manufacturing vertical or was, were you a generalist maybe at some.
[00:07:46] Caraman Pirie: Yeah, absolutely. We were very generalist. I mean, we're located in Halifax, Nova Scotia, well, way over on the east coast of Canada. and, uh, like we're, it's funny when talking about Mo, most of the folks that most of our clients are, are Americans. and you know, and you have to explain to them that you're [00:08:00] east of Maine.
[00:08:01] It makes it kind of present into some
[00:08:03] Corey Quinn: Make your head spin like East, how, how do you
[00:08:05] Caraman Pirie: didn't know there was anything east of Maine, you know? Um, uh, when we first started, um, probably like an awful lot of agencies, you know, we were just a, uh, there were just a small number of us and, uh, doing local work, primarily, digital, um, for sure.
[00:08:22] Uh, kind of the building of websites has always kind of been at a core capability of the firm for sure. Um, but digitally enabled marketing strategy, et cetera. And this was way back in the, uh, way back in the day. Um, so, and then, uh, you know, o over time, uh, we became one of, we were Canada's first platinum HubSpot partner.
[00:08:41] Uh, Uh, and so that was very early days to that notion of inbound marketing and, you know, people didn't even know what that meant. And , you know, it's hard to imagine that even now, I suppose. So that was a, a foray for us into working [00:09:00] with clients, uh, that were not local and that was really a gateway for us.
[00:09:03] We began to sell and work with clients, uh, really. And, um, and it was from, from there that we eventually made the decision to narrow our focus and work exclusively with B2B manufacturers.
[00:09:17] Corey Quinn: What were some of the things that were happening in the business, some of the factors at that time that led you to realize that you wanted to narrow the focus?
[00:09:24] Caraman Pirie: Well, you know, quite candidly, uh, there was a time when being a HubSpot agency was somewhat unique, , and then there was a time when every agency on the planet as a HubSpot agency, and it really didn't matter, right? Um, and so you begin to, I think as an agency owner, you begin to see that in your lead flow.
[00:09:45] You begin to see that in your sales. as a horizontal positioning, the, you know, we really just didn't see that having a lot, uh, uh, um, a long life, uh, or, or one that was particularly expansive [00:10:00] for us. It's like our niche, if you will, within the HubSpot ecosystem was that.
[00:10:05] You know, we were technically very capable. Like we, we more, more so than the average inbound marketing agency, we could build stuff that other people couldn't build, integrate things that other people couldn't imagine. But that wasn't looking like it was going to be a, uh, source of, um, Uh, distinction for very long I, if you will.
[00:10:26] So we've just started, kinda stepped back and looked at the business and said, all right, well, what are our options? And really tried to put everything on the table rather than, uh, make minor tweaks. Um, you know, we were pretty open to just e exploring what could be, and that's when we made a decision to shift from a, a horizontal, uh, focus to really a vertical focus.
[00:10:48] Corey Quinn: And just to feed this back to you, you shared that at that time you were a HubSpot, agent certified agency. And that was a unique, somewhat unique differentiator. And as that began to evolve and that became less unique, you [00:11:00] saw in the business, you mentioned lead flow. Did lead flow, slow down or was it more that you were competing against? Other agencies who the customers or the potential customers felt that would, that you guys were at parody with?
[00:11:12] Caraman Pirie: Uh, I mean, uh, if I was to get too specific, I think I would be, uh, lying about my own memory. I don't know that I remember it with that, that degree of clarity. Um, I, I, I think just generally over time, it's not that lead flow dries up, but you know, you, it, it, it's more like you start noticing that that lead flow dynamic is changing.
[00:11:35] Corey Quinn: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:36] Caraman Pirie: people don't, uh, a as the HubSpot ecosystem got larger and larger, Uh, the, the requirement to go, um, to hire a firm from further away, uh, became maybe less and less, uh, attractive. And, and, you know, we we're based in a very small area of Canada and we have no interest in working exclusively, uh, with local companies.
[00:11:57] It's, uh, not that big of a market. [00:12:00] Uh, so. In order to fuel that ambition we needed to look at, you know, how can we, uh, resonate with, with a market in a, in a greater way. Really.
[00:12:10] Corey Quinn: And when you realized that you wanted to go more vertical, get more specific, what was that process like and how did you end up with manufacturing?
[00:12:18] Caraman Pirie: Hmm. Well, Uh, I, I, I think it, it, it, it's certainly, uh, I'd be remiss if I didn't say that. Uh, David C. Baker, um, we worked with him, uh, uh, on, on our positioning. Uh, David is, is a agency consultant based outta Tennessee. he wrote the, the Business of Expertise, along with a few, few other books and he actually just recently, uh, released a new book, um, uh, which I think is something like the Expert Trade Craft or something of, of Experts or something like that.
[00:12:49] I'm pretty sure I got that title wrong, but, Um, the business of expertise, I think would be a, a useful book for those who haven't heard of it, um, and are listening to this podcast because of course it [00:13:00] has, uh, chapters outlining, um, the pros and cons of horizontal versus, uh, vertical, uh, positionings for, basically professional services.
[00:13:11] And so we worked with David to kind of, uh, talk through and really just, you know, understand the various dynamics of that. Um, you know, get that frankly, the same thing that we look for from that, that I think our clients look for from us. They want. The person that can read the label on the outside of the jar that isn't in the business every day to give them that outside advice.
[00:13:36] And that's exactly what we were seeking from David, is, uh, that sounding board and that bit of clarity. Um, I admit I went into that exercise with an incredible predisposition towards vertical orientation in our positioning. And it was because everything that I. Had read and understood about, positioning within professional services firms [00:14:00] led me to believe that a lot of the toughest nuts to crack i e league flow and sales.
[00:14:06] I think most any agency owner would say that they are better at doing the work than they are at getting the work. Um, Uh, and if I think almost any agency owner would love to flip that, and my impression of it at the time was the greatest hope you have of flipping that is a vertical positioning.
[00:14:25] Basically it helps, it, it makes finding prospects easier and it, uh, increases your resonance with them. So that's, uh, was the, the starting point for, for, for that e exploration. Uh, and. . Honestly, I, you know, I wish there was more science to how we selected manufacturing, but there, there really wasn't, um, we guess kind of stepped back and looked at the clients that we worked with, those that we thought we did really good work for.
[00:14:55] The ones that we seem to enjoy working with, um, and. The [00:15:00] manufacturers that were on our client roster seemed to surface a lot to the top of those lists as we kind of talked it through. And then there's something that we kind of like about manufacturing just as people, which is to say that, you know, nobody ever talks about a one.
[00:15:14] Uh, I always say like, people, nobody talks about a one accounting firm town. They talk about a one indi, like a one company town, like a one, you know, one manufacturer can, will, can make a community. Um, there's an interesting connection between the, the things we make and who we are and our communities, and.
[00:15:35] even our, um, identities, our national identities and things of that nature. There's an interesting interplay that manufacturing has there that I think other segments of the economy or, or other kind of areas that we could have chose to focus on, maybe don't deliver in the same way. And, you know, quite honestly, uh, my business partner and I, I think we just kind of like that about manufacturing.
[00:15:57] We, we like that kind of [00:16:00] community aspect of it. Not to overplay it, but.
[00:16:03] Corey Quinn: No, I think that, um, it's interesting in, in these types of conversations on this podcast and elsewhere, there's a pattern forming for me in that the companies who are very successful in serving a vertical, there is a lot of sort of business case for it, but there's also some, at some level, a personal connection.
[00:16:22] With that, with that agency,
[00:16:25] Caraman Pirie: Hmm.
[00:16:25] Corey Quinn: right?
[00:16:26] Caraman Pirie: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, you know, I suppose that, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm assuming that must help keep them interested, you know,
[00:16:33] Corey Quinn: That's right. And for the long run. Exactly.
[00:16:36] Caraman Pirie: yeah, yeah. You know, I'd say that, that, that that's, uh, that certainly play a part.
[00:16:41] Corey Quinn: As you were transitioning your focus from a generalist to specifically. Manufacturing companies, of which you, it sounds like you had a couple of these clients. how did you manage that transition? Did you just fire all your non-manufacturing clients, or how did, how did that transition work?
[00:16:57] Caraman Pirie: Um, [00:17:00] uh, all of the things that peop like the things that people think are probably really well planned that aren't, um, uh, uh, this is what. I'll just, I'll tell you what we did. I haven't actually thought about it to be honest in this way or tried to summarize it, but I'll, I'll do my best. we basically changed our website completely, like ch changed our entire kind of outward look.
[00:17:26] I mean, that's our only, um, you know, that, that's our, that's our, our window to the world is our
[00:17:31] website and, and, and and business card and all that. So we, we've changed everything.
[00:17:36] Corey Quinn: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:37] Caraman Pirie: Um, and we changed the focus of the people who we were trying to sell to and prospect into, we kept working with everybody that we were working with. And as we brought on new clients, because we were now prospecting into the space we wanted to work in. those new clients [00:18:00] tended to be manufacturers and rather than just to keep adding capacity, we would then kind of slowly exit your non-manufacturing clients. Um, and so over the course of two to three years, uh, you know, at one point you kind of look in the rear view mirror and say, oh, wow, we don't have any other clients anymore.
[00:18:22] They're all manufacturers. Um, but it's, uh, I, I, I would encourage people, I, I think that's one of the, uh, fears that people have in selecting a vertical focus is they think, oh man, I'm gonna have to fire all these other clients and. You, you don't, and, and, and if you think those clients are spending all of their time going to your website to see how you're talking about yourself, man, I like, they probably don't even, like, they may not even find out.
[00:18:53] Like they may not even, not, not that you're trying to hide it, but they're not, they don't care about you as much as you think. Um, [00:19:00] and uh, and it's interesting because we had a couple, one client in particular that we just. We had a real strong personal connection with, but they're not a manufacturer at all.
[00:19:12] Um, they sell wine to be honest, and they sell wine online. Um, and I've always enjoyed the business of selling wine. It's a category I personally know pretty well. Uh, and I, uh, found the act of marketing get to be quite fun. and we have a great personal friendship with the person that runs that business.
[00:19:33] They're still a client today. Um, uh, and I don't think they would care if we said we were focusing on, uh, oh, you know, manufacturing or anything. They would, wouldn't matter. So I, I would encourage people listening to this that are looking at a focus and they already have an existing client base. You, you, it sound, you can have your cake and eat it too.
[00:19:54] It's one of. Odd times when you actually can.
[00:19:58] Corey Quinn: In the early days [00:20:00] of focusing on manufacturing, you changed your website, you changed the outer sort of facing aspects of your brand. What did you do in the early days to build momentum in manufacturing?
[00:20:10] Caraman Pirie: most importantly has, has changed the focus of our prospecting. But beyond that, uh, we, of course, um, uh, the focus of our, our, our marketing as well shifted. So, you know, for instance, we started the Kula Ring Podcast, um, uh, uh, not long after that. Uh, probably a little ways after that at least.
[00:20:30] But, Uh, that I, I think, helped really, um, integrate us more into that community and, um, uh, and it's been really cool to be a voice of that, uh, community too. Um, uh, and, and we host, uh, you know, there's a number of other kind of marketing initiatives that we undertake through the year that we just kind of turned their focus onto manufacturers. And, uh, I guess that's how we did it to, to, to build momentum. And I think, [00:21:00] uh, in combination with that, as you are working more and more and more within your chosen vertical, then your eyes wide open to, The patterns that you begin to see and the, your expertise deepens. Uh, and, and I, when I say your expertise, I mean the expertise of the firm and everybody in it.
[00:21:16] Um, you know, you begin to see, uh, problems that other people don't see and, and, uh, uh, eventually live into that positioning, I think even more strongly.
[00:21:27] Corey Quinn: Is being a specialist in the manufacturing. or vertical? Does that matter to your manufacturing buyers?
[00:21:37] Caraman Pirie: Yeah, absolutely. It's why they come to.
[00:21:39] Corey Quinn: Why do you think that is?
[00:21:41] Caraman Pirie: well, there are so many kind of, um, unique characteristics, uh, to marketing and selling, uh, within the B2B manufacturing space. The, the, the dynamics around the sales cycles, um, the, the, the. [00:22:00] Dying journey nuances. Um, there, there's, if you're not an agency focused in that space, in some ways you don't even know it.
[00:22:11] Like I, I think of one, uh, customer. I, I, I'm thinking of one example where, uh, in a conversation with a. Person who I, I really respect that they're, they're a long-serving agency strategist and they're, uh, a strategist. There had been a strategist with one of the most successful, uh, top tier advertising agencies in Canada, and they were working with a manufacturer and they had detailed a buyer's journey, and it had four stages,
[00:22:41] And when we looked. Kind of the standard framework for that same journey. Ours has 13 and, and it was in that moment where, I'm like, ha. It's not that this person is [00:23:00] dumb. It's not that they don't get it. It's not that they're not a smart marketer, but they just haven't been working in this very narrow sliver of a space as long as we have, and therefore they don't see the complexity we see.
[00:23:12] And I think the clients that select us, they select us. They, that's the insight they want. Often they've been frustrated with a generalist agency, um, uh, and, uh, frustrated trying to explain the nuance of their problem, uh, to an agency that maybe would rather be working on a Nike or an Apple. Uh, and, uh, and uh, that's when they call us.
[00:23:42] Corey Quinn: reminds me of a quote of another anthropologist. This one is, uh, famous. His name is Gregory Bateson, and he said, um, it's the difference that makes the difference.
[00:23:53] Caraman Pirie: Yeah.
[00:23:58] Corey Quinn: Would you say that [00:24:00] manufacturing, the industry has an insider language?
[00:24:03] Caraman Pirie: I think any industry does, and I think, um, even like subsets within manufacturing certainly would,
[00:24:08] Corey Quinn: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And, and, uh, I imagine that's rather important for your business to be able to speak that language.
[00:24:15] Caraman Pirie: Yeah, clients are smart people. They can smell a fake, a mile away, uh, uh, and uh, You know, I, I, I, I, I think that's where that comes through.
[00:24:28] Corey Quinn: Yeah,
[00:24:29] I would
[00:24:30] Caraman Pirie: it, it's hard to keep confidence in a consulting based relationship, if you don't know their world.
[00:24:36] Corey Quinn: how do you attract new manufacturing customers today?
[00:24:41] Caraman Pirie: We, uh, have a variety of, of, of kind marketing channels, I suppose, that we, uh, spend some attention on our, our probably our largest, um, uh, area of kind of lead flow. You know, I say that it's kind of, it's funny cuz sometimes I wonder, uh, but certainly the [00:25:00] podcast is a source so of, of. . Um, I think manufacturers often will learn of us through, through that channel.
[00:25:07] It's sometimes surprising when you're onto into a sales conversation and then, uh, they, the person discloses that they've been listening to your voice for a year. Um, that's a, that's an interesting moment. Um, uh, so you know that, that, that does happen. Um, uh, You know, we're, uh, we're pretty good at this digital marketing business.
[00:25:32] Corey, what do I, I can't tell you. You know, like we know how to . We know how to get ourselves in front of people that are searching for vertically, uh, oriented firms. Uh, and, uh, from there, we're not bad at selling.
[00:25:46] Corey Quinn: That's great. So you drink your own Kool-Aid.
[00:25:48] Caraman Pirie: Yeah. Yeah, I mean,
[00:25:50] Corey Quinn: smart, right.
[00:25:51] Caraman Pirie: pretty, pretty silly. It's funny, I, I used to work for an advertising agency, of course, and an advertising agencies never do ads for themselves and they always kinda shake your head. [00:26:00] Um, which I think is an easy kind of, uh, soccer punch to deliver to an ad agency. But, um, You know, we do, for instance, we do an awful lot of, um, uh, paper per click advertising for clients.
[00:26:13] Uh, it's also, you know, surprising number of leads show up for us that way. Yeah. Just as an example.
[00:26:18] Corey Quinn: You mentioned your podcast, the Cooler Ring. Could you share us with us about what that podcast is all about?
[00:26:25] Caraman Pirie: Yeah, I mean, uh, it, it, it really, as we looked at it, the kind of the, the landscape several years ago, and there was really, most of the conversations around B2B marketing were mostly oriented around sas. And I don't have anything against sas, don't get me wrong, but it's a, you know, the, the, the, the game that's being played to market SaaS, Is fundamentally different than B2B manufacturing.
[00:26:52] B2B SaaS is not B2B manufacturing. Um, the sales, everything about is different. Um, so [00:27:00] we thought, yeah, it'd be really interesting to shine a light on the marketers that are working in this space and just. Try to tell their stories and uh, uh, uh, uh, give them exposure. Um, so that, you know, cuz sometimes I think manufacturing people, there are some really, really smart marketers in manufacturing and, um, I, I don't know that they get the credit they deserve.
[00:27:27] So it was, it was really about shining a leg on that talent. Uh, and, um, And, and that's, it's been a, it's been a cool ride. It's funny because, um, the, the kinda add little side benefit of is that, you know, I think we learn an awful lot as podcast hosts. Um, it gives us occasion to be talking to a really smart marketer every week.
[00:27:53] Um, that is, You know, new business that we hadn't heard about, or if we did hear about it, we weren't, [00:28:00] didn't hear about it that intimately. So it, um, it, it, it, it's a, it's a really nice little, uh, side benefit for the firm as well, I think.
[00:28:06] Corey Quinn: Have you joined any, uh, associations or do you go to conferences as a part of your sort of marketing program?
[00:28:14] Caraman Pirie: Man, we've been really bad at that. Um, , I say that we've, I've gone to a couple of like conferences and, uh, look. Trade shows and conferences work great for our clients in, in a variety of verticals. It can be a wonderful thing. It's not been a way that I have personally, um, uh, prospected for business for Coola, and it's not something that we rely on as a firm for ourselves, but we have an awful lot of experience of helping our clients drive more success through trade shows.
[00:28:46] So it's an, it's an odd little juxtaposition because it's like, You know, it's, it's, it's something we work in every day, but that's one thing that we just don't spend a lot of time doing ourself. There really isn't a lot of, um, [00:29:00] there are a lot of marketing conferences out there, but there aren't a lot of marketing conferences squarely focused on manufacturing.
[00:29:06] And most manufacturing conferences have nothing to do with MA marketing.
[00:29:10] Okay, I won't, I won't call out the trade show because that would be nasty to do on the podcast, but I will say we, I went to one trade show in Chicago, uh, once and with a, that was very focused on manufacturers with the idea that we might be able to. Uh, you know, uh, uh, spark up some conversations and, uh, uh, the opening keynote, um, for this conference, um, was basically, I would say about 70% focused on, um, tearing apart anybody that was at the conference to try to sell them.
[00:29:46] So, And so they, they put up their contact information and like had like a faux email for anybody that was actually trying to sell them. Like it was a whole shtick. So it was like, it was like [00:30:00] supplier hostile and uh, uh, and that was, uh, that was probably enough to sour me on the concept in some ways. But
[00:30:10] Corey Quinn: Enough is enough. Um, what are the positive aspects of verticalizing, uh, a business in.
[00:30:17] Caraman Pirie: Um, well, you mentioned conferences as an example, well, you can only do that with a vertical. Orientation. Right. If you're a horizontal, horizontally positioned firm, you it, it's very, very hard for you to wrap your arms around who are the people that could buy from you.
[00:30:32] maybe the other way to think about it is how do you define who can't buy from you? , um, cause
[00:30:38] I think one of the key, key key benefits of, of, of vertical positioning is that it helps you, uh, define who you can sell to and it helps you say to them, Who you're for and who you're not for.
[00:30:54] If you go to the Kula Partners page, uh, kulapartners.com and click on who, who we work [00:31:00] for. And we're very detailed about the type of businesses that we work with. So if, if, if you show up and you're, if that doesn't look like you, chances are you don't call us.
[00:31:11] Corey Quinn: Right, and you don't waste the, the, their time and, and your time. realizing that on the phone.
[00:31:18] Caraman Pirie: It's funny, I, I don't want to give up too much of David's secret sauce here, but David Baker would say this about that he would say that marketing agencies, entrepreneurs are in, entrepreneurs and marketing agency entrepreneurs in particular are terrible at saying no to opportunity. They will say yes to almost. Um, and we'll take the money in front of them every day of the weekend, twice on Sunday. So his counsel is have a page on your website that defines who you work for. And be open about that because that will lead those [00:32:00] prospects that don't fit that to opt out and not talk to you because you will not have the discipline to say no to them.
[00:32:07] So the best, the best thing for you to do is to make it so that they don't call you.
[00:32:12] Corey Quinn: In other words, don't, don't buy cookies and bring them home if you are trying to diet.
[00:32:16] Caraman Pirie: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, I, it is interesting that I would tell people that if you're an agency and you're thinking about a vertical positioning, uh, and you're like, man, that sounds really scary. To be that specific on our website about who we work for. still get calls on the regular from people who do not match that description that say, will you work with us?
[00:32:43] So you're, you think you're turning your back on a whole bunch of opportunity. You are not. Uh, but beyond that, the real benefit, of course, as you mentioned Corey, is when somebody reads that and they say, oh, that's me. Well, all of a sudden that conversation is [00:33:00] starting in a better place.
[00:33:01] Corey Quinn: What are the negatives to verticalizing a business?
[00:33:09] Caraman Pirie: I haven't found them, but I think other I, I think I can define maybe what somebody else would say, um, because I think probably the one negative that some marketers would find is that they would say, Hmm, I like the variety. There are a lot of marketers out there that really get off on the idea of variety.
[00:33:37] And, um, I, I appreciate that. And I'm not saying that they're wrong, uh, I'm just saying I don't suffer from that. I don't, I don't sit, you know, I'm, I think that, um, David would say that people should work hard at trying to have very [00:34:00] interesting personal lives, so they don't try to get all of the interest and variety out of their work life. Uh, and I, I think that there's some wisdom in what he would he says there, but beyond that, I also find that. I find every time we work with a new manufacturer, I'm, I'm peeling another layer of an endless onion and it's always interesting to me, and it's amazing to me to find out how stuff is made and to kinda on pa like the, uh, we have one client that made sensors and one line of sensors they made.
[00:34:38] The only job of those sensors was to say whether or not the other sensors are working. I find that hilarious and fascinating. Others may find it boring, so if, if, if you find something like that, boring. If you're, if you want all of your variety from your work life, whether I think a vertical positioning might be a challenge for you.
[00:34:59] Corey Quinn: It goes back [00:35:00] to the comment you made earlier about just having a natural affinity or curiosity about. The nature of manufacturing in a local town. You know, sort of that being that one company town. So having that natural curiosity, I think in this context makes a lot of sense.
[00:35:17] Caraman Pirie: Yeah, I mean, I think, uh, I think curio, you know, if there's two great things that a marketer ought to have, it's a good blend of curiosity and ignorance, probably.
[00:35:29] Corey Quinn: So two more quick questions here for you and then we'll go ahead and wrap up one, the first one. , what would you say to someone who is listening to us and thinking about focusing their business on one or, or a few verticals?
[00:35:43] Caraman Pirie: well, I, I think, um, you know, different businesses have different dynamics around that, and I can probably, you know, I can speak most intelligently about it through the lens of B2B manufacturers or agencies. Um, one, one segment that [00:36:00] I advise and one segment that I live, um, uh, so. Uh, I, I think, you know, I, I would say, uh, twofold.
[00:36:12] I think you need to look at what are those areas where you really deliver impact and, and, and, and, and, and in combination with impact, actually have an interest in it. Um, so that's like that, that's one box that you need to check. But over on the other box is you need to make sure there's a market. Um, so I think one of the things that people can, uh, they can maybe get a little too excited as they start down that path and they maybe don't step back and say, Hmm, maybe, maybe I should go out and based upon the, uh, ideal, uh, client profile that I've defined for myself, based upon this new positioning. Maybe I should go out and maybe try to generate a target account list and then see how many competitors are also [00:37:00] trying to serve that exact same target account list. And, uh, there's a, a sweet spot there. Uh, I, I think to, to where you, you know that there's enough of a market. And you also know that your competitive, uh, situation is, is favorable enough.
[00:37:20] And so I think it's like, almost like the frosted mini wheat. You gotta have, you gotta have the frosted side. You gotta be excited about the vertical. Uh, you know, you gotta, you gotta have that level of excitement, but flip that mini wheat around. Go to the, you know, be a, be a bit more, uh, hard-nosed with yourself and, and say, okay, I might like it.
[00:37:41] Uh, I, I, I, is it, is there a viable business there or not,
[00:37:46] Corey Quinn: My, my mom has a great saying, which is that, uh, climbing the ladder of success, you wanna make sure the ladder is leaning against the right building
[00:37:53] Caraman Pirie: Exactly
[00:37:54] Corey Quinn: because you don't want to get to the top and realize, you, you [00:38:00] cr you climb the wrong building. Last question for you, Carmen. Um, what's your motivation?
[00:38:07] Caraman Pirie: Whew. Ah, wow. I wish I knew that answer to that question. That's a really great question, Corey. Um, these are the questions people ought to have really nice quippy answers too, you know, um, uh, in increasingly actually, as. Progressed over the years. I, I, I think, um, my motivation is mostly in seeing, uh, Mostly in seeing the growth in others.
[00:38:47] I find it really, you know, it's one thing to have a vision for an agency and it's one thing to know who you want to serve, and it's one thing to be passionate about and whatever it, it, it's an, [00:39:00] it's another thing to kind of give that vision over to a team of people. And then see them flourish in ways that you couldn't imagine and succeed and deliver on that vision in ways that you couldn't do yourself.
[00:39:14] And, um, if not, if, if, if a whole bunch of things piled up and made it so they didn't want to come to work in the morning. That doesn't happen to me very often, if at all. But if it did, that would be the one thing that I think that would keep me coming. So I guess that's probably the motivation.
[00:39:35] Corey Quinn: Yeah, that's beautiful. Where can people reach out to you if they want to continue the conversation or wanna just reach out and say hi?
[00:39:45] Caraman Pirie: Well look, if you wanna reach out and say hi, the best way to do that is, uh, c a r m a n, uh, [email protected]. The only Carmen practically on the planet that's spelled with two As and not an E. So it's, uh, pretty easy to remember, I suppose. And [00:40:00] then, uh, yeah, so email me, uh, um, Available on LinkedIn and such as well.
[00:40:05] Um, and, uh, the one thing I will say about my parents is they, uh, gave me a very unique name. So at the very least, you won't find a second one most likely.
[00:40:15] Corey Quinn: I love it. Thank you so much for joining Carmen.
[00:40:18] Caraman Pirie: Corey, it's been a pleasure to chat with you. Thank you for, uh, uh, inspiring some, uh, thoughts with these questions. Uh, you've, uh, uh, you've got me thinking.
[00:40:29] Corey Quinn: That's great. It's been such a treat and I've learned so much from you, and I'm sure the listeners have gotten a ton of value as well, so thank.
[00:40:37] Caraman Pirie: My pleasure.
[00:40:38] Corey Quinn: All right folks. That's it for today. I'm Corey Quinn, and I hope you join me again next time for the Vertical Go To Market podcast. If you receive value from this show, I would love a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts.
[00:40:53] Thanks, and we'll see you at the next one. [00:41:00]
